Enchanter Robe

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Filatal, Jan 11, 2014.

  1. Filatal Augur

    So I figure with my post in the beta board, someone is going to read between the lines and look up our new clicky soon. I am kind of surprised no one has brought this up yet. This is going to be a long post.

    There are changes coming to the enchanter robe. Some of these changes had to happen, and while I am sad to see them go, they did need to happen as the enchanter robe was hands down the most powerful in game ( though few realized it ). Other changes I disagree with and I believe they are too harsh in relation to other robes, but I have been unable to get dev agreement. What I did get was that we could discuss changing the click effect in future installments. Whether that means T2 of CotF or next expansion, I do not know, but that is the reason of this post, to start getting some ideas. Yes, I am going to explain the changes, but a bunch of whining isn't going to help. I would prefer to focus on what we want going forward ( or disagree with me and tell me the click is fine ).

    So, the change. It was always intended that the Ench Robe would affect a limited number of nukes. You can look at the raw data, and max_hits was always a field with a limit of 20 ( old versions ) or 10 ( new versions since HoT ). But, max_hits_type was set to 0 ( none ) instead of 7 ( matching spells ), effectively making it unlimited +damage for the full 5 minute duration. This was changed with Hate Rising to the proper value and I noticed it in the spell file and brought it up to the devs in charge.

    As you know, our robe is the same SPA/effect as Enunciation of Tashan. One difference is that our robe did not have a minimum mana cost of 10 like Tash. So, while it was supposed to be dps boost for the enchanter ( limit resist chromatic ), every class that proc'd mana reverberation was also getting a boost on their MR hit. Using the latest robe ( mostly because it is a nice even number ), they were getting an extra 2k on every MR proc. Assuming they could use all 6 charges each pulse ( which, while hard for enchanters to do, fairly easy for mage/wiz/necro ), in 5 minutes, that's 90 MR hits ( best case, granted, we all know how reliable MR aura is and that would be chain nuking ) for 160k base damage. If during a burn, that number jumps dramatically. Even just looking at 100% crit and IoG for 2 minutes and the other 3 minutes all non-crit, that's 540,000 free damage. Multiply that by the number of casters that had an enchanter with MR aura going.

    I think we can all agree that this is above what was ever intended for class BP clicks, even if all of the MR charges weren't getting used.

    Before other casters start jumping up and down, while 540k is a big number, that's over 5 minutes, so we are talking 900 dps and those are fairly optimal numbers. Your numbers aren't going to take a huge hit, the problem the devs have is more that 1 item is granting this much damage and 2 enchanters could basically keep this item up permanently.

    Obviously, reducing the max_hits to 10 would stop this. But, the enchanter would also rarely get a nuke in before other classes used up the charges. For this reason, the robe will only affect spells that cost a minimum of 10 mana going forward. This is the part that had to happen.

    As for the limiting the max_hits to 10, I believe that is too low. Unlike other classes that were getting 2k in free damage ( granted, we were getting that on MR, but not on our nukes ), enchanters only get a net damage increase of 665 hit points of damage on spells that cost over 10 mana, because we are going to have Enunciation of Tashan on every mob, which already provides 1335 damage increase to chromatic nukes. 10 hits, under full burn, will be about 40k in additional damage. Under non-burn, much lower ( up to 16k if you got lucky and had innate crits on each one ). I think this is far below what other class bps provide, but it is believed the mana return makes up for the difference. I can see that argument from a mathematical perspective ( if you assume we are responsible for providing 4 casters with an extra spell ), but from a practical perspective, I don't see the mana return being needed very often.

    So, it is my personal opinion that the new robe click is very weak in comparison to other bp clicks. Am I wrong? And, if I am right, what direction would you like the a future robe click to take?

    ( last note, if you want to complain about the IoG focus, please start a different thread. I already posted a small snippet about it on the beta boards, but I know not everyone reads those ).
  2. Dandin Augur

    Oh Filatal.. What have you done?
  3. Dandin Augur

    Filatal. When we shared the se guild tag, you where a young enchanter. Still up and coming in the world of class mastery. You where a curious mind. I encouraged it. But I had warned you.

    Some things are better left alone.

    You had taken advice from me, Lyrik and Mariina and where well on your way to developing your style. Which I encouraged. However. There where some things we did not share with you. For good reason.

    The Seven Secret Arts.

    I had a lengthy discussion with the enchanter core in SI. And explained the dangers of revealing these to you. For this reason. Right here.

    I miscalculated your progression as an enchanter. According to my estimates. You wouldn't discover these for at least a few more years..
    Your thirst for knowledge is admirable. But foolhardy.

    You have broken the code. Filatal.

    I made an error. I wasn't keeping close enough tabs on you. I still deemed you harmless
    If I had been in beta this time.. I would never had allowed this to occur.

    You broke the first rule.
    1. Do not talk about <b>
    Mithrandyr likes this.
  4. Enkel Augur


    Dandin, I literally cannot take you seriously anymore. Whether this was meant for comedic purposes or not, this was the post, of yours, that finally tips me over the edge, broke the camel's back, and what have you. I tried to read what you have said and never posted anything about you personally, only corrected you when you were wrong about topics that have nothing to do with your class or certain terms. But this,THIS WAS PRICELESS.

    If anyone else had the voice of Dustin Hoffman narrating Dandin's post, please let me know.
    silku likes this.
  5. Mithrandyr Augur

    Sean Connery
    Mary Poppins likes this.
  6. Mary Poppins Augur

    For me it was Liam Neeson. But Cloris Leachman also works pretty well, tbh.
    Mykaylla, Axxius and Mithrandyr like this.
  7. Enkel Augur

    Okay, so we all agree that it wasn't actually Dandin's voice, which we have heard, but a celebrity.
  8. silku Augur

    I didn't hear a celebrity. I was picturing more the guy on the corner with the cardboard sign screaming the end of the world is nigh.
    Qest T. Silverclaw likes this.
  9. Qest T. Silverclaw Augur

    You guys are worried about our robe click getting fixed? Seriously? One of the "7 Secret Arts" of being an enchanter? LOL! That's not in the top-70!

    Let's not forget that our spells can go from being the most powerful in the game to completely worthless depending on the content. Are the mobs charm/mez/stun-able or not, and are those spells necessary or not? That's the basis of our true power, and it has almost nothing to do with items, and everything to do with how they populate the zones.

    P.S. Thank goodness I didn't grow up under Mother Dandin! LOL!
  10. Khauruk Augur

    Man I hope that was just a poor attempt at humor. If not......wow.

    >If I had been in beta this time.. I would never had allowed this to occur.

    What, pray tell, could you have done to stop this?
  11. Enkel Augur

    The reason Dustin Hoffman narrated Dandin's post, for me, was because I imagined Shifu talking to Po. He didn't think Po could live up to being a kung fu master (Dandin's view of top enchanter ), and was extremely surprised when he learned the secrets of kung fu (enchanter secret arts). Just saw Po and Shifu fighting over dumplings while drawing a parallel.
  12. Filatal Augur

    You guys should do what I do and ignore him. He does everything for attention and you guys are just giving it to him.

    Anyway, any actual thoughts on the topic? Do you want the robe to stay as is with the 10 charges going forward?
  13. silku Augur

    I think all rational players would rather see an increase in power than a decrease. Robe click is very low on my list of priorities though. I'd rather push for things like raising our charm level limit to match our mez, or a siny bob that works well enough to compensate till we can charm again.
  14. EverChanter Augur

    The only club Dandin is a part of is the "outsiders looking in club"

    If the robe needed to be fixed, than so be it. There is NO necro club for enchanters, we do not hide information and going forward we can build on it instead of using this to hold us down.
    Mykaylla and silku like this.
  15. Qest T. Silverclaw Augur

    Not if you're an enchanter!

    The more powerful the mobs are, the better they'll be when charmed.

    The weaker the players are compared to mobs, the more necessary our debuffs and crowd control become. Etc., etc.

    So, call me irrational. /shrug
  16. silku Augur

    Alright, let me spoon feed you the text Qest, instead of reading what you want, read what I said.

    "I think all rational players would rather see an increase in personal power than a decrease." The topic of discussion is the robe, not content. Most people would rather see the robe increased, rather than decreased. Sigh.
  17. Dandin Augur

    I'm slowly growing tired of people suggesting changes or nerfs on these forums. The enchanter robe did not need a change .. I made that post to take a shot at how silly the entire thing is.

    Parts of it ring true. Necromancers as a class have a "deal" going on. They have for years. If anything is discussed that could potentially hurt the class, the individual is silenced. And quickly. "Mayfleiur" (sp?) anyone?

    It was well known amongst all the other classes that discussing certain things was a good way to get yourself fixed.

    Enchanters.. Are the most self destructive community I have ever met

    Qest. Posts a video. Stun gets changed
    Florencia posts about how mezz duration is too long. Mezz mastery gets changed

    What's next ? Our robe? Alright fine. Not a giant leap down the pit. But realistically.


    Your self destructive tendencies towards the class as a whole are becoming dangerous.

    This is why I am very careful about what I do post.
  18. Dandin Augur

    Filatal.

    I have watched you grow from when you first joined Sol Invictus. to now. your style hasnt evolved much. but I'll get into that in a bit.

    I used to be a part of your guild. Your Enchanter core. So did another enchanter. mariina. although he has retired from EQ.. which is a shame, because I'm sure Mariina and Renaii would mesh quite well together.

    back when the enchanter core in SI was Lyrik, Mariina, you, and myself. you where still growing, Still leveling. still acquiring AAs. still growing as an enchanter. You aquired your own style of combat.

    Mariina dubbed this style "Reactionary" Meaning. You react after the fact, Mobs spawn, and then you start doing something about it.quite a while actually after the fact.

    How do i know how you play? Well, Im sure you noticed during raids why either I or Mariina stayed close enough to you to get your combat data in log files. So we could see what you where doing, and when.

    I'll give Marrina credit for noticing the pattern. He noticed that you would consistently overwrite debuffs later in combat. Sometimes as late as 2 - 3 minutes later. With things like tash.

    marrina and I had puzzled over this.We didnt understand why you where doing this, We even went as far as to assign debuff roles in Enchanter chat so you would see, Okay. Lyrik has tash. Dandin will cripple, ect. to show you we didn't want or need multiple players casting the same debuffs. as it was essentially a loss of cast time, and efficiency,

    Then Mariina suggested parsing you, Watching you. So to speak, As it seemed to both of us after a while that you wheren't interested in working WITH us. Instead you preferred to go about and do your own thing.

    And what we found. Was appaling. Sometimes, you didnt enter combat at all, until 3-5 minutes AFTER engage. You where completely silent. not a murmer of a cast. and we knew you wherent AFK. You where chatting, moving around.

    Mariina would send me his logs, and it showed this.

    Lyrik lands tash
    Dandin Lands Cripple
    Marrina slams in with Dreary Deeds and a DoT
    Dandin and Mariina start a nuke cycle.'
    Lyriik starts deep sleep spamming

    ....

    20% later. (Mobs health)
    Filatal
    Tash
    Slows. (Or trys to. There is a shaman slow on it already)
    Cripples
    Nukes

    We puzzled over this. We talked to Lyrik (Your Class Leader) about this. We didnt understand why this was occuring. we couldnt figure out what in gods name you where doing. You seemed quite content to work on your own. Instead of part of the core.

    it seems your attitude of working completely alone and oin a 'Reactionary" Stance applies here as well. now. I applaud your thirst for knowledge, but your doing this in the wrong way.

    You should have brought your findings to the community, then had us talk about it in a BP thread, THEN raised concerns after you had enough input to make an educated choice.

    The BP has more then one use, if you didn't already know that. and acting alone, could and may prove hazardous to the health of the class as a whole

    I only pray that some of the classes mechanics remain a mystery to you for the time being. Until you learn to work with the community. Not against it.

    Robe didn't need to be fixed. Filatal. once again you are meddling somewhere you dont need to be.
    If i was in beta. I would have shot your idea down pretty quickly. but. unfortunatly. I'm not available to to beta at this time... as well.. I'm currently 800 miles away from my home. posting this on my laptop
  19. Khauruk Augur

    Dandin, all you're doing is making yourself look bad, petty, dishonest and insulting here.

    I suggest you just stop posting, especially when 98% is unrelated to the thread and is just condescending junk designed to make OP look bad and trump yourself up.

    Just stop.
  20. Dandin Augur

    I'm simply pointing out that posting things requesting nerfs is ridiculous. especially considering that the player behind the screen suggesting it consistently missed the point during actual gameplay.

    i grow weary of nerf calls. This is stupid. and Enchanters are the only class I have EVER seen call for nerfs on their OWN class.