Enchanter question

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by story, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. Cicelee Augur

    In Fanra's defense, he initially said Charisma did affect certain spells. Dandin said it did not. Fanra, in posts #7 and #11, shows actual patch notes/game notes and SOE developer comments highlighting Fanra's beliefs. Dandin then proceeds to say Fanra is wrong but with no facts or links- just a Dandin is right/Fanra is wrong discussion.

    It was only until post #17 that Dandin actually linked patch notes/SOE developer comments supporting Dandin's beliefs. If Dandin would have posted this to Fanra in post #5 or whatever it probably would have saved many of us from having to read this back and forth bickering.
    silku and Sinestra like this.
  2. Ratbo Peep Augur

    It saves a lot of headaches (and reading of bickering) to just assume that folks like Dandin, Qest, and Gladare pretty much speak "ex-cathedra" when it comes to number crunching.
    If they differ on a stat, the percentage is usually minimal.
    ie Even when they're wrong - they're "mostly right".
  3. Cicelee Augur

    See I would disagree with that, to a certain extent.

    I have been playing my magician since Feb 2000, has been my main character the entire duration. I like to believe and feel I know my class inside and out on the majority of magician things. However there are a few magicians that I know knows more than me about my class...and there are several that I solicit feedback and opinions from that I trust. So just because I have been playing 14 years does not mean I know 100% of the class, just 98%.

    But the bigger issue and statement is: how does anyone know, save for maybe a couple board posters, that I know 98% of my class? I don't have a red name, my board title is not "Authority on Magician Things". It says Cicelee, Augur. Most board members don't know me from Joe Schmo or Suzy Q. I think it is naive of me to expect anyone to just listen to anything I say since they don't know me.

    And that could be the case between Fanra and Dandin. Fanra may not know Dandin from a hole in the wall. Fanra is seeking EQ developer feedback, or specific concrete data that refutes his belief. Dandin, up until post #17 or #18, is (in the mind of Fanra) just another enchanter disagreeing with Fanra with no evidence or proof.

    Maybe some players should have titles other than Augur. Maybe someone like Beimeith, for example, can get a Wizard Knowledge title because he seems to know a lot about that class. Maybe Dandin, if he qualifies, deserves an Enchanted class title. That way when Dandin answers a question, that title helps him get more respect and trust than without.
    Potawatomi and Sinestra like this.
  4. Qest T. Silverclaw Augur

    While I appreciate the sentiment, I certainly am not one of those who parses things out to determine the real truth behind the game. I rely on others to parse and discuss their results with them. I grew up as an enchanter who min/maxed for maximum charisma in the hope it was helpful. I now know I may as well have been naked! Ah well, it taught me how not to get hit.

    Dandin can be helpful, but he has a strong tendency to say, basically 'My opinion is the right way, and any change means you're wrong.' Which is not true. He also thinks he knows things he does not, so I definitely take him with a bit of salt.
    silku and Sinestra like this.
  5. Qest T. Silverclaw Augur

    Oh, goodness, please, NOoooooooo!

    People learn to trust Beimeith because he doesn't BS, states his sources, and obviously knows his stuff. He does not get on a soapbox and expect people to take him seriously because he "invented" a tactic that everyone else was already using, nor does he say he knows everything there is to know when he doesn't. Posters like Beimeith thus don't need a special title.

    Basically, while there are a few players who deserve special titles around here, there are more that would be able to finagle the title undeservedly or complain that they deserved it.
  6. Ratbo Peep Augur

    Correct, you're a good combo of "others parses and your instincts" - I like that.
    Dandin can be "caustic" and often speaks in "black or white" but he usually doesn't miss by too much. He's definately a good "baseline" to keep in mind.
    I've found Gladare and Borek to be of immense help in the Ranger dept. as well.

    I think anyone who actually frequents these boards can tell pretty quickly who is "on the ball" and who's "whiffing" a lot of the time. This without further titles.... LOL
  7. Sancho Elder

    I just want to back up a previous poster and confirm hAgi is the best chanter stat.
  8. Qest T. Silverclaw Augur

    That may well be, but it's not much more important than having a pretty robe ornament. Enchanters, in my opinion, should work on getting their foci, spells, and clickies, and give the rest away. Maybe some day we'll actually find something useful, and those folks we yielded loot to will remember our kindness.

    I'm doing very well with whatever rots and, given the choice, go for spell damage because: numbers.
  9. Filatal Augur

    Ok, since Dandin is quoting Silv apologizing to me, I feel it is time to chime in.

    Charisma affects resists against Mez, Lull, Charm. Outside of a dev coming in and saying they have changed things, this is a fact and can not be assailed. Now, the cap is so low and so easily passed that in today's game it is relatively pointless to gear for Charisma. Lowering magic resists will still give you better bang for your buck on these spells.

    Heroic Charisma is a totally different stat. It was originally intended to give extra faction when you received faction hits, but either it never worked or faction is so pointless in today's game that the devs have abandoned it.

    Both of these came from a discussion on beta boards, which was part of what Silv and I were hashing back in forth. I did a half-hearted attempt to find the thread, but I'm just not that invested in it.
    silku and Mykaylla like this.
  10. Dandin Augur

    I don't want or need a special title.

    I have done my homework on my class..
    That being said, my tactics differ from a lot of other Enchanters. Does this mean my methods are the absolute? No

    Sometimes I have difficulty finding the source from the developers at hand at a given time, as, in most cases, including the one above, I need to search through a year or two worth of patch notes to find the source. And this is time consuming.

    In most cases, including right now. I post when I'm away from home, from my IPhone, while on coffee break/lunch, or while waiting for a machine to finish cooling down so I can work on it.

    So searching for patch notes, IRC discussions, developer logs.. Whatever. Seems impossible. Although, you will notice when I am at home, my posts are more flushed out, have better data and sources.

    In this case. I wanted to ensure the OP got the intended point, instead of reading a Druids dated thoughts from 2002.

    I don't claim to know everything, I never have. I just outline what I do know in simple black and white.

    There is no grey area with me, your either right, or your wrong
  11. Sinestra Augur

    There are a lot of people that I can almost always trust when reading and tend to put things in a very clear and un-offensive way when asked for help. Everyone can be rude, but when asked for help, these are the ones that I always look towards because they are helpful, friendly, and pretty much always know their stuff.

    Tearsin Rain
    Abazzagorath - who can be abrasive like me, but is genuinely friendly when asked for help.

    Now this isn't to say these are the only ones that know anything or are the most friendly, they are the ones I know that I can pretty much always trust their information and opinion and remain friendly through almost any discussion with someone who is really looking for help. Others are very knowledgeable, such as Dandin, but are a bit harsher with how they present and discuss it. I also don't claim to know everyone on the boards that really knows their class and supplies tons of help.
    silku likes this.
  12. Piestro Augur

    This is an extremely accurate statement for the high level game.
  13. Dandin Augur

    I had stated this, earlier, in a more "wordy" manner, earlier.

    Thanks for confirming what was already stated, Piestro.
  14. Potawatomi Augur

    This wordy explanation?
    Shiea likes this.
  15. Tearsin Rain Augur

    ... aaaawwwwww.

    i don't put myself out there as much as i used to, and i was never as big of a poster here on EQlive as i've been on the SK forums, but seeing my name pop up when i really didn't know anyone noticed me was very flattering.

    glad i've been of help!
    Crystilla, Potawatomi and Sinestra like this.
  16. Gladare Augur

    Now I have to try to be nicer. And make sure I'm right when I think I am lol.
    Mykaylla should be on everyone's list though.
  17. Kozak New Member

    Thats not exactly precise Dandin. What you repeated (and I'm paraphrasing already) was that charisma did nothing. Now I was able to deduce that you were implying charisma did nothing of much use beyond a very low cap but all the OP asked was what it did. It also happens to make that number next to the letters CHA bigger too.

    Its entirely possible that the OP is intending to try something different for some fun, perhaps seeing how far he/she can get with no equipment whatsoever for example? I once played a permadeath version of EQ with a friend for example. If we died we deleted the character, this was back before a lot of the xp changes too where level 20 was a landmark rather than a few hours. It didn't last more than a month or so but was fun for a while (losing the third character over lvl 30 was the "killer" :p )

    Had your comments been phrased much more like Filatls it would have saved a whole bunch of drama with Fanra who obviously (much like myself) appreciates details and preciseness and wants to make his own opinions and conclusions based on facts rather than accepting other peoples opinions as facts, even if those opinions and conclusions end up exactly the same
  18. Mykaylla Augur

    Finding information from beta, even if it was your own posting, is problematic anyway.


    Whilst we don't have exact numbers on precisely how much effect charisma has on mez/charm/paci at the low levels for the OP, Fanra, and anyone else interested, we *do* regarding mem blur, which is:

    Base mem blur value + level bonus (player level < 17 = 100, player level > 53 = 25, yes, if you're lower level, you have a bigger bonus) + charisma bonus (Charisma/10 up to a maximum bonus of 15)

    So as an example, a level 60 enchanter with a charisma of 100 casting Memory Flux would be:

    30 + 25 + 10 = 65% chance to blur. If the same character were to then go and get some gear upgrades with charisma in mind to reach 150, they would gain 5% on their blurs up to the max of 70% from that spell.

    After the advent of AAs, enchanters got a line called Enhanced Forgetfulness, with 5 ranks. Now this is an interesting one- Unmei (former Enchanter Class Correspondent) spoke with Nodyin regarding Enhanced Forgetfulness 5, which Nodyin stated was 50%. However, that post also states that Nodyin said charisma continued having an effect on blur up to at least 300, when from other (current) dev sources (Nodyin is no longer with EQ) we have hard info that it is charisma divided by 10 up to a limit of +15% bonus (it was significant in determining the efficacy of the cleric memblur line, which was revisited in House of Thule and has upgrades ever since). Even if it's not 10% per level and there was some misunderstanding in Nodyin and Unmei's conversation, we do know that it is sufficiently high that an enchanter with 150 charisma or higher and a level greater than 53 is all but guaranteed to blur every time they want to with Memory Flux (which is still used frequently due to the Underfoot click Unearthed Belt- much love), and Blanket of Forgetfulness is also likewise reliable, which has a 10% lower base chance. This makes the investment of AAs toward it worth more than three times the difference between having zero charisma and 150 charisma at minimum- if the 10% value is correct, you should be able to reach 100% blurring with Fog of Memories or Memory flux without a single point of charisma at all, which is impossible to have due to base stats at character generation (unless you're debuffed/in full negative stat gear).

    It is most likely that charisma's function on charm, too, is some kind of charisma/x up to a limit (we know it's up to a limit from those beta conversations between enchanters and developers). If it is in the same ballpark as its' efficacy on mem blur, you're looking at a 15%-20% chance at most added to the difficulty of the mob's checks to break the charm.
    In Planes of Power enchanters started the Total Domination line of AAs, which now have 6 ranks. If each rank of that line is on average at least 3%, and charisma's effect on charm is similar to mem blur, then the AAs are equal to or better than the difference between zero charisma and max charisma.

    Add to this the fact that it is harder to avoid capping stats at a much earlier level (you can reach 255 in everything off defiant gear well before 50), and that tash has gone from 23 MR reduction to 105 (nearly 5 times better), and you can see why, with some numbers, the short answer that a lot of the enchanter community will give you is "charisma is (almost) worthless." You don't even need 255 charisma to achieve the full benefits of the stat on any class, let alone 4-5 times that which we now have as a combination of levels, gear and heroics.

    Mez duration has never been altered by charisma, but as mentioned, it has contributed to lowering resists. Again though, the advent of much more effective AA lines has diminished the visible effects of charisma.

    When Fippy and Vulak launched, I made an enchanter, and in the pre-Kunark game when I was still playing there, sure, it makes a difference (and I did have a set of charisma gear), so if you're interested due to self-imposed progression, OP, your changing point is probably going to be around Shadows of Luclin, and if not then, definitely Planes of Power, when the explosion of gear options, new AAs, stat buffs, and even stat food make reaching your optimal charisma level trivial.
    Axxius, Fanra and Kozak like this.
  19. Kozak New Member

    Thank you for this. I find stuff like this very interesting and as someone who plays on Fippy, it may even be relevant to me if I go back to my enchanter for anything other than buffs :)
  20. Sinestra Augur

    That's right...you just keep yourself in line sir! I've made a list and I'm checking it twice!

    Mykalla is actually someone who should have been on the list. There are others that I am sure should be on the list that no one has brought up. I may have left them out because I haven't had as much chance to talk or hear them. My list certainly isn't the end all be all. We have some great people in the community that really do want to help.

    Hell even as crappy as I get sometimes, I genuinely want to help people. Except Piestro. Halflings are half people and therefore only half count.