Enchanter nerf

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Verily Tjark, Jun 21, 2018.

  1. Genusii Journeyman

    To the caster classes:

    There are so many intricate details within the game, I've started to wonder if anyone knows how different each caster class was created to be when it came to dps - how far apart should classes be in baseline dps. They have a placement in mind; however, they have no idea if or when a better played sub-dps class can make up the intended difference. I think the perceived notion of dps is getting people into a caste system - a placement of classes into set parameters in which neither skill, timing, luck, group, level nor gear can alter the system.

    To the enchanters:

    After the dot nerf, I have found dotting anything is draining beyond maintaining. I have seen this outcome related in this thread several times. I will not dot group often. I relate it to asking a necro to use a lesser line of dots, a mage to use an incorrect pet, or a wizard to use a lesser line of dd's. When you play a class and realize the cast per return was less using one method over another, the lesser is dropped.
  2. Verily Tjark Augur

    No one is saying you can do w/o enchanters now... all we're saying is this nerf went too far. We are long past the days of needing to chain rune tanks. We can easily keep spell shields up without missing a beat on DPS. We can buff folks too without affecting DPS. Our ADPS is very useful for many classes. Those things are great and make Enchanters essential.......

    However, it's what we have to do in between those things (DPS). We don't have any CC to do so that whole aspect of our game is over on raid content (thnx lazy raid design I guess? idk). That leaves us with DPS. Were we a bit overclocked? Sure. Did they overdo it trying to fix it? Sure. Now fix it and let's get back to Pokeit crying real tears about enchanters until the end of EQ.
  3. kizant Augur

    Right, well when you run into push back for trying to play better you really need question why you're with that guild in the first place.
    Sancus likes this.
  4. Rosarchx New Member

    Why do we get all this gear and augs? So we can do damage. Why do we have 2600 plus spell damage. To Do Damage we are Casters. We are not friggin healers or friggin tanks we are casters you idiooottttss and we one of 2 casters that Damage over time because our nukes are sllllloooooooowwwww reloading in fact we have to run 3 of them our top nuke from 100 105 and 110 if we want to be attempt to help the raid. Now you have added another delay on spell cast to another dam spell..... Why not give enchanters some more spell gems so we can cast our spells and wait wait wait to be able to cast them again. Been playing this class since July of 1999 at a high level and this is by far the biggest nerf I have ever seen to the class. It's not like there is a surplus of the class. The New Vision of the Enchanter is to make us useless on raids after buffs and debuffs you are succeeded. Real question is how many more chanters will quit after this nerf.

    Rosarchx Chanter from Mith Marr Inny Namless emarr and another server soon when you contract again do to excessive nerfing.
    xcitng likes this.
  5. I-WANT-IT-NOW Augur

    There really can't be this many clueless people. It has to be a case of lets throw a tantrum and see what it gets us. It does suck that he waited so long to fix his glaring mistakes but you are still better off then if he did nothing at all. I will repeat what I did for shaman a day ago.

    Mind Storm RK 3 started at 4366 a tick and currently is 14593 a tick. It now costs mana to use. Thats a 334% increase in base power from a single cast and because he doesn't want you casting it on every mob he added a recast timer. I agree thats an awful choice on his part. The fixed mana part limited it enough but we aren't the dev.

    Drown RK 3 started at around 2300 a tick and is currently 9005 a tick.

    Bewildering Constriction RK 3 started at 1418 a tick and is currently 4377 a tick.

    So before dot revamps started Enchanters would have base dot damage of 8084 in 3 casts. You could stack older lines in some cases others you couldn't but it would not even be close to another 8000 using 3 additional dots.

    After dot revamps you are now currently doing 27975 in 3 casts. You did lose the ability to spam your strongest dot on every target endlessly but you have gained 346% in base dot damage from 3 casts on a single target every 9 seconds or so. This 346% over shadows any additional dot gains you had from stacking older lines in addition the the pre dot revamp base of 8084.

    So single target you are 346% ahead of the game in dot power from where you started before any revamp. Lower then the 346% when you start factoring not being able to spam every single mob every 2 seconds but still higher than had he never touched your base dot power at all. Your dots remain as bonus dps paired with your nuking, proc and pet dps.

    This all carries forward into your 106 and above versions of these dot lines which had no pre dot revamp data from 2016 to illustrate how much you gained even after he drastically reduced them from the absurdity that they started at.

    So you are way better off than had he never touched your dots. You just are no longer tuned better than many dps classes that do not also have mezz, charm, buffs, debuffs, pets, root, blur, stun, runes, etc. Most enchanters knew this coming the day he changed your dots to what he did as it was way to much of an increase in base power this just enjoyed the dps ride while they could.
  6. Sancus Augur

    Spell damage doesn't actually affect DoTs.
    Venau, Scornfire and kizant like this.
  7. Rosarchx New Member

    Well well well here comes a someone who has not played the class as long are as hard as myself or my other chanters that I play with currently on my server..... Excuse me Mr. happy chanters got the nerf bat I don't give a rat's for your snarky comments and the Shaman and Druids on My server don't care for your attitude either. 3 classes are not happy for the brutal nerfs and we are Complaining Deal with it.

  8. Rosarchx New Member

    Why don't you put your Characters name down Coward or you just gonna hide and quote.

  9. Gokusan Journeyman

    lol this is funny weee
  10. segap Augur

    Which is actually broken. If it's going to return less mana than it costs to cast it, it should just cost less mana to cast and not return any. Otherwise, the mana return is just a complication and novelty. The design gave an enchantery version of taps, merging the historic spell lines of mana sieve and clarity in a dot. Balancing it to require a certain duration to break even and then to pay off is reasonable. You shouldn't just be able to cast it on any trash that lives 20 seconds and get instant mana.

    The recast timer makes sense if leaving it as a significant net gain in mana. Adding the recast timer and making it cost mana to cast makes no sense. It's like he was juggling in his head either using a recast timer to tune the return (significant return, but throttle how often as is done with spells such as Harvest), or reducing the return to balance it, then the monthly code freeze hit and he just committed all his experiments without having made up his mind how to tune it. The end result being a broken spell.
    Verily Tjark and Behelit like this.
  11. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Womp womp!
  12. Verily Tjark Augur

    Pretty obv that they weren't saying it did... however one of our DoTs has an initial DD component, so maybe it does? idk, just sayin
  13. Rosarchx New Member

    High spell damage shows a dedication to creating a character that does Spell Damage. So by Nerfing a classes line of spell is a slap in the face to all that don the Robe. Imagine if they put the ac modifier of all plate classes to that of Leather classes. You too would hear a cry of foul play towards Daybreak. Chanter don't tank on raids they nuke thanks for the Nerf Daybreak you suck at balancing this class you have gone too far.

  14. kizant Augur

    Nobody here is saying that they didn't overdo it. Most the comments pointing out other things that enchanters can do and pointing out that enchanters were pretty OP for a while there are a reaction to the overly dramatic and inaccurate story were getting from some people. It's not the end of the world and the class isn't completely broken with these changes.

    However, they are now a bottom tier raid DPS class, from what I've seen, and that is probably not where they were intended to be. If the cut was closer to 25% it would probably make more sense but Sindaian's estimate of 45% or more seems pretty accurate. But it would help to have like, I don't know, some specifics about what is bad about the change, how to improve it, pareses, etc. Nobody is going to ready an insane person's rant and take it seriously.
    Genusii likes this.
  15. Cleaver Augur

    Shouldn't they be a bottom tier raid dps just like monks :rolleyes:
  16. Sindaiann Augur

    I could post parses and show the pre and post nerf sustained change but nothing constructive comes from these forums anyways. All people do is turn every thread into a flame and cry for nerfs about any class but themselves, which I see no point in supporting.

    The % difference was about what I estimated previously anyways, around 45%ish on multiple mob sustained events lost.

    Personally I would like to see the 9 sec recast timer removed. Let our own mana pool dictate how we use it, because with the mana return nerf it will certainly manage itself. We aren't shaman's, we can't canni (yes we have recovery tools, you don't need to point it out. We just aren't shamans with unlimited recovery potential anymore).

    Also we were told we didn't get new 6sec duration extension type 3 augs for our Mind/Strangulate line like we had previously because of the strength of the dots when asked in beta. I'm not sure how we go from that, which the devs were told the dots were OP and then when asked where our type 3 extension augs we were told that we can't have them because the dot is too powerful, to then nerfing the dots but we still don't have our type 3 either.

    So no 6sec extension plus a 9sec recast on a 48sec~ dot - do the math when putting it on multiple mobs and you will see real quick where its limited.

    Makes sense.....#sarcasm
    Genusii likes this.
  17. kizant Augur

    I kinda think there shouldn't be too big a difference between DPS classes if played well. Although, a few strictly DPS focused classes should probably have a small advantage. It just seems like there's just too large a difference between the best and the worst. You'd think they would want to position classes more toward the middle.

    Yeah, it doesn't seem like they understand that at all. I don't know if parses are always that helpful but couldn't hurt. I'd hope they have had some target relative dps change in mind but maybe not. Can never really tell.
  18. gotwar Augur

    Was waiting until after raids to post anything Enchanter related beyond my initial comment on Test patch day. Seeing about what I'd expected, a ~45% reduction in damage, depending on event.

    Something that's easily forgotten about Enchanter DoTs is the low base crit rate we have (30%) and the complete lack of supplemental burn tools to make use of. Unlike other DoT classes that boast 59%+ crit rates and burn abilities to easily boost near or above 100%, Enchanter's are never able to reach that same output and aren't able to abuse high base damage DoTs in the same way.

    As an example, before any burn discs are factored in, a 30,000 base damage Enchanter DoT is the rough equivalent of a 13,000 base damage Necro DoT, as far as average damage per tick goes. Someone can double check my math there but it should be accurate.

    That being said, yeah, the 48,000 per tick base damage on Mind Tempest was definitely too high, as was the initial nuke damage on Strangulate. An easy fix would have been taking the pre-nerf Mind Storm base damage, adding 20% to it, and calling it Mind Tempest, giving us roughly the same increase as other classes this expansion. Doing the same with Strangulate (including the initial nuke portion) would have balanced us out nicely with other utility/ADPS classes.

    This would give us a Mind Tempest with roughly 33,600 base damage per tick and Strangulate with 27,000 initial nuke damage with a 13k DoT. No recast timer, keep the mana return change. This gives us a reasonable upgrade over EOK without allowing us to blow away tier 1 DPS classes.

    As it stands right now, we're pretty much in the dumpster DPS wise and are at the very bottom of the pile with no hope of competing with anyone given equal skill.
    menown and Genusii like this.
  19. Millianna Augur

    Enchanters have every right to complain based on principle. It’s not about too much dps or whatever, it’s about the way it was handled. They would have been better off with removing the ability to stack dots and compensating with spell upgrades (at the same time with a level change). The results would have been same, without the slap to the face.
  20. Havanap Elder

    I would settle for getting rid of Mind Tempest and Strangulate entirely, and using the pre-nerf Mind Storm and Drown spells. No recast timer please.

    The original buff to enchanter dots happened over two years ago now. You can't expect a group of players who have been incrementally upgrading their toons over those last two years in order to eke out as much of a performance boost as possible to be happy when they are -slapped back into the Dark Ages.
    Enchyy1 likes this.

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