Enchanter nerf

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Verily Tjark, Jun 21, 2018.

  1. Sancus Augur

    With respect, I raided with you (on a Wizard) for over a year, and you have no business commenting on class balance.
    gotwar and kizant like this.
  2. Castwell New Member

    No idea who you are, But I can only think of 1, maybe 2 that have changed servers, changed class and well, there's probably a reason you had to do that.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  3. menown Augur

    Oh boy, this is getting good.
  4. Spellfire Augur

    That's not what I'm seeing on parses.
    Sancus likes this.
  5. Sancus Augur

    Nope, Sancus has always been my main. I have moved servers (and guilds) twice in my EQ career, but certainly not out of necessity, and I have quite good relationships with the previous two guilds I was in (and still raid with one of them).

    That's besides the point, though. Wizards are one of (although not the) strongest classes on Sathir Line, and you coming in 15th - 20th is purely skill related. I don't really enjoy having to point that out, but if you're going to justify nerfs based on your performance or lack thereof, I think it's warranted.
    Sheex, Smokezz, kizant and 1 other person like this.
  6. segap Augur

    The problem as always is the timing. If they nip things early, then it's more accepted. If they let things linger for 6+ months, then it becomes expected. In this case, Enchanters were hit with other nerfs in prior months. Nearly everyone was shocked they were nerfing core abilities and leaving the dps alone. For me, that sort of signaled a change in vision for the class. Yet, they then do the heavy handed nerf months later.

    This drama would greatly subside if they'd listen to beta feedback (many pointed out that Enchanters would be a top dps class based on beta). And, if they miss it in beta, if they'd listen to the feedback in the forums in the month after release where there was plenty of chatter regarding this as well. At some point you have to assume that something is intended if they don't do anything about it for months. Either that, or they're incompetent and don't pay any attention to what's going on in the game they design.
    Enchyy1 and Metanis like this.
  7. I-WANT-IT-NOW Augur

    I agree they don't always listen but they also get so much conflicting information that I am sure its hard to wade through it all. You have 4 people who are veterans and sound knowledgeable saying one thing and then another 5 who are saying the opposite with the same backgrounds. Who is the dev to believe when all of them are posting and PM'ing with what looks like solid and valid data? So if they can't easily replicate it on their own they tend to sit and wait for more data or time to pass before making changes.

    For example in RoS beta I explained the devs can't be serious with their dot tuning for druids and enchanters in general a few times. Explaining how powerful it made them verse dps classes. And instead caught flack from others about the subject telling me to play better. I must have went back and forth with about 3 Triton necromancers 50 times about the power of druid sustained on raids. They blasted me that no necro could be out parsed by a druid for any duration. Then I linked them parses of what a druid was capable of and they told me I was making it all up and that the parses were fake. As they played with some of the top druids and their druids were not replicating those types of parse numbers. As we see months later druids were drastically reduced in power because they were destroying just about any class regardless of duration when played as a dps class with support.

    So in that case you have 3 experienced and veteran necros who sound knowledgeable and that would know the ins and outs of raids being in a top guild and yet they were flat out dead wrong. The devs probably see situations like this a thousand times a day and in many cases can't sort it all out in a timely fashion and frankly don't have the first hand ability to easily see what is what in a real world raid setting. So it sits waiting for more time to pass and more data to come in.
  8. Sindaiann Augur

    The problem is that the way they continue to change things and the length of time it takes to come to change indicates they have zero clue. The devs were told time and time again that the mana return and dps was massively OP. They didn't listen.

    So when its left to this long what is people left to think? It was a mistake? Or the devs have zero clue on class direction which is clear from every class?

    Trust me they have zero clue

    It's a make work project everywhere
  9. Cleaver Augur

    Unless its changed recently you got One Dev doing spells and one doing AAs and another doing items/weapons.

    From a players view it is obvious all 3 do not communicate with each other on class changes and balance. Just look at beta from EOK. One Dev Turned Savage Spirit into a buff which would of been a dps increase itself since you could stack a real disc with it now. Right after that the other Dev turns Disconcerting into a 100% uptime Disc that is pretty nice by itself and stacks with the new Savage Spirit buff making it extremely OP. This is a prime example where Dev 1 and Dev 2 did not communicate changes at all. Both devs were told about the situation in the same beta and ignored the feedback and we all know what happen later.

    So not only do they not communicate with each other they simply ignore any balance related issue for most spells/AAs. We get what they give us and we lose what they take away no feedback from anyone matters.
  10. Deedeedee New Member

    They could just change it all back to the way it was and then we can go back to complaining about whose class is OP instead of complaining about whose class got nerfed the worst. I personally worry more about the grammar and spelling errors in the speech from the NPCs, no one likes being told to go speak to so-and-so at the fark. I am fluent in all the languages and it took me two days to realize it meant "farm".
  11. fortuneteller Augur

    It is not just, some message from players that class XXXX is overpowered, they need to see if it is true, and how much might be needed. It is not something just done overnight, they need to crunch the numbers.

    There ARE people. who are running campaign of getting other classes nerfed. Should not surprise me, that DBG know who they can listen to and get right numbers and who are less thrustworthy.

    Then I also guess keep track on how many are there of each classes, and how many new players will there come more of that particular class in next months, and if the numbers are way above that, there some red lights starting to blink. In which case they will try to find out why. Situations with increased number of a certain class. Magicians when they could AE kill a lot, SK swarming, increased number of shaman/chanter/druids.

    Have I jumped on that wave with making a char of such a class, sure so, and invested time in that char, and then seen the time wasted when the unavoidable nerf came. Done that a few times, but stopped doing that now, because I got wiser, and now I know it is just a Waste of time. Of those chars I made, I never player, except for some buffs.

    Then nerf itself, it IS better to OVERnerf than UNDERnerf, and why is that ? Because when you OVERnerf, you get the talk out the way at 1 go, and if it is too much, you can help on it by lessen the nerf. UNDERnerf however you nerf 1 time, and then find out it is not enough and you nerf more, upsetting people twice.
  12. Verily Tjark Augur

    Let's make a spell line useless and then we can repackage it and give it back to them later as something new!!

    Strangulate is flat out useless now imo... 10k mana for 11k per tick? Not worth the mana. I'll just nuke more.

    Tempest will be worth keeping on a raid boss, but it won't get cast on many adds.

    The big violater in all this was obviously Tempest. They could have just put in a hefty recast timer so it could effectively only be on one mob at a time. The main reason we were topping parses is because we could DoT every add as soon as it spawned while everyone else is still following raid assist. The longer recast timer would also negate the need for such a big damage and mana return nerf.

    Instead we get an annoying recast timer which is essentially pointless, because the mana return is so severe it doesn't make sense to cast it on multiple mobs anyway.
  13. Brohg Augur

    Spitefully not casting good spells won't impress anyone.

    Strangulate and Mind Tempest should be on every mob you're engaged with, just as before.
  14. bigpapa Augur

    AGAIN , problem come mainly from RAID environment , and Db nerfing group game as well.

    it would be easy to have raid mobs mitigating some ( most ) dots if DB think they are OP ..

    my group boxing crew , shm,druid, chanter got huge nerfs on dots because in raids , dot's with all the adps were doing too much damage ...

    in group game , mobs dying too fast for dots to be as effective VS raid mobs.
  15. Ninelder Augur

    But it wont, because we will run out of mana to fast, I have been actually dropping twincast or mana reciprocation aura to put up mana regen, while also using much less Dicho and less DPS spells over all. Which means less chromatic haze and group gift of mana procs for the casters in my group. All so a few whiny skilless DPSers want to top Raid parses while playing one-handed and watching TV, but who apparently have the ear of some clueless devs about how an already sparse class should be balanced. Good job lazy players on getting your entire raids DPS screwed.

    That never happened... After the second of the now four huge overnerfs in a row, 2/3rds of our longtime raiding chanters quit the game! I am not even a chanter main, but for the last two expansions that's who I raid with. The devs overnerfed an already extinction list class..... again... Like they did with Bards in TBM. After years of horrible development we had two bard mains left. They had been with us for 17? years. Since the founding of the guild. Gone forever due to bad tuning. How many years do they have to do this before they get a clue? How many people do they have to make quit the game before they will learn or be replaced with someone who cares?
  16. Brohg Augur

    more fools, they! bards are more powerful now than they have been... ever? If you discount the bugged entire-mana-bar refill of Dicho that persisted too long.
  17. Brohg Augur

    more fools, they! bards are more powerful now than they have been... ever? If you discount the bugged entire-mana-bar refill of Dicho that persisted too long.
  18. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    There's too many bards in the game - but far too few that can actually play their class well.
    Enchanters on the other hand...
    Are still very useful, despite their DPS nerf.
    Though i agree much, it's a bad one - just as the SHM one was.
    Unneeded in my eyes too but meh.. who am i, anyways. Just someone with his own mind.
  19. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    while i can only really speak about SHMs with before/after, i very much doubt this in general.
    Depends though perhaps what you mean by "it all"...

    The routine to date was, for each class affected:
    up damage some, up mana cost "to match new damage".
    Then reduce damage again to lower than it was before, but keep mana cost.
    For those that were affected in EoK, sell back some of the "lost power" in the form of new AAs at ridiculous costs.
    Same seems to be expected for ENCs now.

    Some call it "the nerf hammer".
    Where i come from, we call such behavior "Holzhammer Methode" - roughly translated "sledgemallet method".
    As was said above, they seem to have lost (if they ever had it) their.. erm.. "sensible touch" for such things.
  20. I-WANT-IT-NOW Augur

    His extremely reducing the mana efficiency for some dots contradicts his original stated goals. And while I disagree with that its because he does not want non dps classes spamming the improved burst he gave them on any and every mob putting them at dps levels just near, at or above actual dps classes.

    I am not doing this for all your dots. And all these changes were carried forward for RoS dots, they just didnt have the history going back to 2017 before dot revamps occurred to illustrate how you are now doing more damage.

    Nector of Woe RK 3 started at 3437 and is currently 6565. Mana contradicts stated goals and is way worse now. Its doom dot started at 7343 and is currently 10499.

    Reef Crawler Blood RK 3 started at 2675 and is currently 8967.

    Sraskus' Curse RK 3 started at 3674 and is currently 9583.

    Serpentil's Venom RK 3 started at 7300 and is currently 8967. It went from having a 24 second recast to now only being 1.5 seconds.

    Garugaru RK 3 started at 3465 and is currently 9458.

    So just looking at those dots you started at a base of 27,894 from those dots. Now you also could add in older versions of these which would increase this total some but at more mana cost as well. I am not going back and adding up a ton of older dots versions as well but its less then..........

    And end at a base of 54,039 after dot revamps for the same dots which is a hair shy of a 100% increase from above. At a glance this more than covers any gains you had from stacking older versions of lines in 99% of gameplay. You ramp up faster since 1 cast now equals 1.5 - 4 casts of older versions before revamps, depending on the dot. Its just way out of whack mana cost wise now. You also gained the ability to spam cast your 12 second dots which kept their mana efficiency while increased in power.

    You are doing more damage then you were prior to dot revamps, same as everyone else. Its just way more costly to spam some. Nerfs suck but your still doing more damage with your dots. Its just very evident he winged it with every dot change he has made never learning from his mistakes along the way.

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