Discussion in 'Casters' started by Sinestra, May 9, 2014.
This is the real crux of the problem.
Sony thinks so. Some people like me, agree.
What exactly do you expect them to say? Oops we just now realized that there has been a way for you class to do something clearly overpowered for years? That doesnt look good for them. This is no different from the spin stun bug that we used for years to make mobs deal 0 DPS. Took them forever to take notice, then they fixed it.
First of all, who is "we" that noticed?
I find it very difficult to believe that SK's have any problem with enchanter runes as they were. If this was the case why did the suggestion have to be made that aggro be reduced rather than effectiveness for the enchanter? Are you sure you're not confusing the Rune proc aggro effect with our rune? I always have aggro before I start casting that rune unless I'm rebuffing and no SK, or even the warriors or rangers have had trouble pulling and keeping the aggro. The enchanters should not be blurring for an SK to get aggro, they should be casting Terrifying Rune on you. That's the rune that doesn't reduce anger, the Umbral rune is the one that will drop aggro in an aoe, for everyone but the enchanter who cast it. But knowing that ahead of time an enchanter should be using Stasis and/or Silent Casting to do it.
Since HP etc, seems to be an issue, I am a raid equipped enchanter here's my Magelo information: http://eq.magelo.com/profile/701262. More or less raid buffed, no tribute on, I am at 115693 HP, 103300 Mana. You have life tap spells, FD, and other disciplines that should see you through. We have runes and some distracting type AA. I've played this enchanter since January of 2002.
I asked one of our SK's how he keeps me from being run over when I'm spamming the self-rune His reply was that on raids he's aggro spamming three direct aggro spells, with 4 other AoE aggro spells. He's obviously not focusing on dps'ing but on keeping aggro off the raid without ganking the tanks. Even our warriors can hold aggro over anything I do short of mem-wiping the raid target.
I have been the only enchanter on and mez'd the mobs in the Raid: Memories of the Faceless with one SK, (not necessarily the same one each time) who has pulled the aggro back to him even when people or the npc's broke mez, or trained mobs through the mez'd Recuso. I was spamming that rune to keep myself up until he could get it back. I fully expected that he/she would, and the SK always does. So I suspect that the issue is not that the rune is the aggro problem.
I used the self-rune on the Doomscale Horde and I was getting aggro from Mez/Stuns far more than the runes, and even then unless I was OOR the aggro was held by the SKs, Pallies, and warriors. The healer casting heals on me got more aggro than I did, and those runes kept him/her from having to cast as often on a character with a lot of aggro.
First of all, you do NOT gain aggro by having enchanters mem-blur, they should use stasis on themselves or have a mage in their group (we're usually in a mage/wizard group, coth them to fade aggro or there are tl's to the safe spot that you can run back from), I've worked in teams with SK's through many expansions holding stun nets, mez' nets, and other strats and they have always held the aggro. In fact, when I have to do stuns I insist on having an SK as part of the group because they do keep the aggro. If you're not, you, or your enchanters, have not been using the strats and spells correctly. That doesn't mean exploits, or necessary nerfs, it means simply that you might not know as much about the classes as you think you do. Old school still works.
The stun net or mez net has always been a standard strat which REQUIRES the enchanter to get in and coordinate with other enchanters in the raid to keep a group of mobs locked down. WE GET HIT. That's why they gave us the runes in the first place. Our charmed pets HIT. We were told that enchanters had the equivalent of "heal" in runes. Never mind the aggro then, or that each of those old rune casts was a dot apiece.
If you get a bad player that is breaking mez, consistently get them out of the raid. Although it usually means that they are the ones that get hit and/or killed. It happens accidentally with AOE spells and discs, but it's still not going to get us killed if we have runes to manage the mobs. In those cases we WANT to gank aggro but I wouldn't spam cast the runes to do it, I'd flat out sit down or loot a mob corpse if there was one handy.
I can't think of a single current content raid where the SK train mobs around for the enchanters to mez, most of the mobs aren't mezzable or stunnable, and the SK holds the aggro. I know we've done it in the past, prior to the addition of the mem-wipe to the
The rune proc on melee weapons is a different aggro than the one we get. In fact, some of the weapons proc so quickly that the tanks I've grouped with are the ones spam-casting aggro-runes with the same type of effect as Terrifying Rune.
I take offense particularly at the "Nothing the Devs have done breaks chanters in any way, they just took a style of play away that was never meant to be in the first place and was exploited by certain users and found out." They added one more unnecessary nerf because apparently some people have not learned how to play their roles and assume that anyone doing any better than them is exploiting something besides their intelligence. As to what they took, runes dropped after a few hits, cleric healed but with the runes and waiting on the recast I burned Color Shock, Veil of Mindshadow and Eldritch rune before I could get another cast off without being interrupted. So now I'm waiting on other refreshes to do my job. That's something else the runes let us do that wasn't an exploit, it gives us a chance at getting off another spell cast or disc. That's the mez, rune on the tank, stasis on a group member that needs an aggro drop.
Exploit isn't in doing what you're supposed to be doing, I
You're wasting your time trying to communicate to the devs. Enchanters are the untouchables of EQ. They have an unspoken policy of not engaging enchanters regarding complaints about how their class is handled.
The few times they do say something, it is in a condescending and dismissive manner. One example is when tash was farmed out to other classes in the form of an MM clicky, I recall asking for a useful clicky of our own to balance out the farming of a class ability. I suggested maybe a lower level malo clicky but was shot down and was told by a dev that they can and will give out our spells and they do NOT have to compensate the enchanter class in any way for this. It was then that I went and quit EQ. I only recently came back due to friends but I see nothing has changed. The mez mastery nerf by itself makes me want to just go and quit again.
I see the disdainful attitude devs take towards enchanters has not changed in the years I've been gone as seen by this latest instance. Melee nerfs canceled, wizard nerfs canceled, enchanter nerfs go go go. Ridiculous!
Not to mention that something being an exploit on one fight does not mean it works that way globally.
You think its balanced to just sit there tanking a mob in any zone while chain casting Unity? You think it takes skill to hit 1 button over and over? Lol.
For the majority of changers this change has not effected them in any way that will change their play style, from the couple I play with and have talked to in game. There are vet few changers on the boards posting that this change is bad, and of those not a single one has posted evidence to back up a negative impact except for chain rune tanking, which I'm guessing is what the devs wanted to stop.
Either bring hard evidence (a video would suffice) or put on your big boy pants and walk it off. And yes wizards and melee brought evidence to show the devs, and had the changes slowed. There will still most likely be those changes in the future when they can address the entirety of the issues.
I don't think it's an exploit. I think it's just players being too resourceful for their own good. Finding a use for an ability/spell/skill that the devs did not think of and/or do not like. It's not like they were taking advantage of a known bug or something. It's a fine line but that's just my opinion.
If you need video evidence to prove a post-nerf, naked, unbuffed Enchanter can consistently handle 6-pulls, much less 4-pulls, well, I dunno man...
I didn't try it very often, but Judi was certainly not the only named I tanked. In fact, outside War, I'd be surprised if there were very many group named that I couldn't tank pre-nerf!
Some here complain that it's because of one mob in one zone, but that one zone is the *whole game* for non-raiders. It's essentially the ONLY current content!
Maybe the term "exploit" is a bit too strong, but in any case the action of chain casting Unity was deemed "imbalanced" by Sony and tweaked to a more fair state.
Thats because they were aware of the reasons WHY they were being changed. It's very hard to argue to not change something when you do not know the reason why it is being changed. In one of the other two threads about this numbers have been posted, concerns and issues with the change have been explaned. I do not belive making the argument to reverse the change can contuine to be made without know WHY the change was made. And before anyone states 'Oh it was rune tanking' it is not, enchanters can still rune tank, it is harder and you need more spell slots but it can still be done.
Keep it up Mr. Mouth,
You're just begging for another nerf.
You can't figure out why without the Devs spoon feeding you answers that should be obvious? Ok here let me spell it for you in simple words:
IT WAS TOO STRONG.
One thing I agree with you about is that Enchanters can still chain rune, and probably still create the same effect that Unity was able to do before the fix. Again, do not be surprised when they swing the bat once more, this time at the non Unity runes.
12 seconds recast is not fair, it's an eternity on raids.
I watched zerkers do 300k burn dps, wizzies doing more than double of what rogues do and i have watched our best warriors tank 2 raid bosses at once while using all their tricks.
And you come here and tell us this spell needed nerfing, in a game that always had much bigger balance issues and often we even loved it for that. Are you even a Chanter, or what? Or just doing this to wind people up with your arguing.
Nope. I'm just a regular guy who could honestly care less of how the impact of any change made to EQ affects the raid content. If you want to limit your position and analysis of the Unity fix to the "raid scene" I will not dispute you, because I frankly do not care about raid content implications. If you (and the other chicken littles here) continue to argue that the change impacts group content in a negative way I will continue to show otherwise.
In your opinion yes, but how does that work when not a month before they increased the damage absorption of rune? Seems to me that they did a 180 on their original stance and I want to know why. And before you and companion about it being too strong, the Devs came to the conclusion to INCREASE the rune amount THEN came to this conclusion. Something doesn’t make sense in that logic to me.
I think it does make sense, make it a bit stronger, but then make it "not as" chainable. beef a little to slim it down in other ways. Its what they need to do to advance in other areas. Kinda like they are doing with the mage heals. Beef them up so that they can bring mage pet mitigation down some. Makes it where pets will be in the same position, just the pet owner has to pay a bit more attention. Same here, you have to think a little bit more about what you are doing. Yes you can still do much of what you could before, but you actually have to think about it.
** the mage part is pure speculation
The reversal is indicative of how disconnected the Devs are with the ways to exploit the class. The fact that they had to reverse themselves is likely the core reason (or at least one of them) that they chose not to engage the enchanter class as they did with Mental Contortion.
Alternatively it could have been intended as a balm for the incoming fix, but I doubt it.
Never argue with people who haven't actually experieced anything and tell you it's all fine or people who tell you everyone is fine with the changes when they don't actually know everyone or the majority of anyone. It's all futile and a waste of time, they are better off just ignored.
In case you are not aware, this nerf removed what was done in the previous buff. I personaly do not think people whould have this much of a problem if it was beefed up in power but made not as chainable.
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