Enchanter and Wizard changes coming.

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Sinestra, May 9, 2014.

  1. Sinestra Augur

    Being able to do this in one zone shouldn't have nerfed the abilities of the class, they should have changed the way the mobs dealt with people in that zone. Making poor design choices and poor testing and then punishing players is a failure of the dev team. One they make often.
    Yinla and Narye like this.
  2. Marton Augur

    This. Changing class ability because of ONE special zone is just silly.
    Yinla, Narye and Sinestra like this.
  3. Fortunbas Lorekeeper

    I heard that the devs are thinking of changing claw range to change the harvest refresh proc. Not cool.

    Ok, change but not get rid of might be acceptable.....so make the proc chance lower like you did with arcane fusion. To get rid of it is to mess with the last nerf to our Havoc range - which now have such long refresh times that no one uses them - sure the first havoc starts at lvl 84 versus the first claw at lvl 96 so fine it is a benefit to high level casters and rightly so but I agree with most of the wizards comments on this so far......It does help with sustained dps on long fights with multiple boss mobs that don't offer much rest time for the raid. I think we also need to address the fact that most high level wizards can dps a boss mob in burn mode within 3 to 4 minutes without using any harvest and not go oom, so we really need to think about what type of balance we are trying to restore with this proposed nerf.

    Yes, it was once the realm of the truly gifted wizard to manage mana efficiently and in so be the sustained dps king of the raid but the devs messed that up ages ago. It is still fun to measure on long fights with multiple boss mobs but this is not something many raiders appreciate......except the wizards of course. Mostly raiders are concerned with the boss mob at hand and don't measure past this. What will definitely be noticed is that the wizards are now oom on the second and third/fourth boss mob so sure this might be an added thrill but again consider that this dynamic can be added with mana drain NPC effects that cant be resisted like with neriak 1.

    Also consider that there are plenty of ways to gain mana on the fly without harvest refresh procs - just costs cash for harvest potions and other tricks of the trade not to be mentioned less they get nerfed as well. So yes, it does seem and feel that this "cash to play your way" is just rearing its ugly head again and surely one or two wizards who would consider this is not going to make the SOE bank managers scream with jubilance.

    I think maybe lowering the chance of the proc might bring most wizards back to deciding to cast another spell besides the claw range but I doubt it. I find it a challenge to know how and when to use the refresh proc because of course it refreshed ethereal weave as well and of course it is still very random so one never knows when it will fire and this takes skill to discern when best to use it.

    How many wizards sit gritting their teeth when they get back to back refresh procs that they couldn't use because the dps on a twin proc was more important? It all adds to the fun and enjoyment of the game. For high level wizards with big mana pools, the only time it really makes a difference is on long fights with multiple boss mobs. Consider that the devs nerf boss mobs after the initial release to help lower staffed etc guilds defeat them. This nerf will just bring these raid nerfs forward a bit sooner.......

    I made such a huge stink of the Havoc nerf, and then calmed right down shortly after finding that the claw was a huge improvement. Now this means I have to add my rant to this proposed change. It will affect gameplay and game balance but for the negative not the positive. I am in favour of lowering the proc chance but no more. I still believe that the forced reju proc effect is good and is a really neat random bonus that does require skill to time and use correctly. This should not be taken away from the class.

    The twin proc and harvest refresh procs from claw allows lesser skilled wizards the chance to compete with their class contemporaries and this will be lost I guess with the nerf.

    Having thought about this a bit more, I think if the damage of the claw range was dropped significantly this might restore a bit more balance where dps raiding wizards would consider using a more efficient nuke versus taking the chance of getting the procs....just another option to consider.
  4. Vizier Augur

    It wasn't just one zone. The PoWar exploit only served to bring a lingering problem to everyone's attention.

    Please name one non-exploitive thing that you cannot do now that you could do pre-nerf.

    The strat isnt even completely removed. Do not be surprised when they come back later and raise the recast of ALL the poly runes.
  5. Sinestra Augur

    There are other zones where you can aggro lock with a pet and others can DPS within melee range and never take aggro?

    I won't be surprised, they have made a lot of really stupid decisions of late and they were always well known for them in the first place.
  6. Diptera Augur

    So, SOE refused to enter discussion about other ways of resolving the problem, and went ahead and swung the nerf bat. Thanks for the push I needed.
    Jordis and Sinestra like this.
  7. silku Augur

    Yeah, im feeling the push too. Gonna check out the changes first hand but if im relegated to pulling only 1 or 2 mobs at a time, no point playing. Ive been max AA for months now with nothing to do. I dont need a nerf resulting from a buff(that was supposed to be in response to a nerf) that we did not ask for. Why buff us when everyone said we didnt need it, the nerf us to a lower level than we were at prebuff?
    Sinestra likes this.
  8. Ratbo Peep Augur

    I think there's actually a "human" factor in play here.
    IMHO our Dev's have never really fully "accepted" the 1st rule of game design:
    "You never know what the players will do with (to) your game once you give it to them."
    Which brings us to the Plane of War and it's unique "pet mechanics" and such.
    In this one zone a good Chanter can use rune aggro coupled with pet aggro to hold a mobs attention while others kill it. This was surely not "part of the plan" when the zone was envisioned. I also expect that there is a good amount of emotional investment and raw effort in this new zone and its designed mechanics on the part of the Dev's. A lot of work went into bringing this zone live.
    So while some limited "rune tanking" has always gone on in other zones - in PoWar it's deemed "design breaking". The gut reaction:
    "WAAAAAAAAAAA!! Those mean Chanters broke my widdle game!!! Gave them an inch and they tool a mile! I'll show THEM who's really the boss around here!"
    This is not meant to be harsh, but it's the only explanation I can see for the total lack of regard the Enchanters were shown re. this nerf. All the other classes were at least "talked to". I don't think anybody was in the mood to "want" to hear anything from the evil Enchanters. All the lessons learned from the "Mental Contortion" thread went out the window.
  9. Filatal Augur

    Honestly, in the group game, it isn't the worst thing in the world. It will be a small step backwards, but if they do some of the other changes they have hinted at, I won't be overly upset from a group perspective. I still have an issue with the change on paper from a raid perspective as it will likely lead to either 1) me dying more or 2) taking a less active roll in events like WK 1 or BW 2 as I won't be able to handle agro from 5+ mobs. I can barely handle it today and one bad stun often kills me, but I won't even have a way out in the future while I stare at the countdown on my rune. Too many raids marginalize enchanters from the design phase, scaling back our ability to participate in the ones we do have a role isn't my favorite direction.
    Narye and silku like this.
  10. Narye Augur

    WK1 is going to hurt. No if ands or buts. This is setting us back years of development, back to when an Orc could kill us. Same thing, our runes will be just as effective against current content, as they were back then against Orcs, and things that go bump in the night
  11. Casidia Augur

    ^ with the exception that during Orc times it was worth playing a Chanter for what the class was created for by Verant. Dying easy was a challenge to overcome, now this change just means a cancelled account and giving up on this company.
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  12. silku Augur

    Id like to at some point see what the vision of the class is. Everytime we play with what we are given, we get a nerf.. thats not the way we intended it. Slow was powerful, so now partial slows. Charm wa powrful, nerf them cause they are pet tanking. Ae stun groups, nerf it. Single target stun locks, nerf em. Runes are being used to live and go around a mechanic in one zone designed to cater to raiders... nerf the runes.

    So what is the vision? Stand in camp and dps like a weak wizard? Charm for extra dps (when a charm mob is present, which is fewer and farther between these days)? Single pull like a bard, but with much fewer tools? Is cc only an oh crap tool now? Avoid adds at all costs and just dps?
  13. Astran Elder

    Silku's post is spot-on. One of the enticements to the enchanter class is that in the abstract it has the potential to be a very powerful class. The concept of a class that attacks its enemies using subtlety and focusing mind power instead of brute force that's common across other classes is engaging. In reality, though, every time intelligent players use that potential, it's taken away. It appears the main role of the class more and more is to make other classes look good, through short and long term buffs, rather than directly taking control of otherwise unmanageable situations. Without communication from the dev team, though, it's impossible to say if this is intended or not. I was very pleased with the way the mental contortion nerf was handled, and that just adds to my surprise and disappointment in how the rune nerf has been done. Whatever the future vision is for the class, I hope the dev team is observing what's happening here and is working on ways to be more forthcoming with future information and more receptive to feedback.
  14. sojero One hit wonder

    The problem is the agro, we first started noticing it on shards landing raids with all the adds. If the enchanters recast their runes the sk's could not get agro again unless a taunt ability was used, AE agro wouldn't cut it. We had the chanters start blurring them so we could get the agro and they wouldn't have to worry about the hits. Same on WK1, but we use rangers to root and WG/MM/HA to bring them in. No enchanter should need to ever be hit by that many mobs, nor were they designed to. You are designed to keep them on lock down and let runes soak up the 1-2 hits you might take on an early break.

    As an SK if more than 2 get through and I do an AE agro and I'm not already on the move or they cut me off on the move, I'm dead, I don't have 180k in runes then another 100k life. I have 150k (120k without) hp fully buffed with my temp buffs and cleric aura (which I wont have when trying to kite adds while chanters mez them). I would love to be able to soak 2 full rounds so I could run through them when I don't see them and run into a couple I just agro'd.

    Sometimes you get a bad player that dots one or keep breaking mez, well that's when your knights are supposed to pick them up and take care of them. Right now you can take 2 full rounds without dying, more than most tanks can, and were fine with that. the recast timer and the reduced agro do not truly change the way the class is supposed to be played. Just because you WANT it to be the old way, is not necessarily the way the game is meant to be. Nothing the Devs have done breaks chanters in any way, they just took a style of play away that was never meant to be in the first place and was exploited by certain users and found out.
  15. Casidia Augur

    ^ You play an SK and judge what Chanters did...
    So what i enjoyed doing most during the last years (after it became clear our mez stuff is becoming less and less important) was all an exploit, i wonder if you and others who use that logic realize what you are saying there. Disgusting.
    Sinestra likes this.
  16. Fireburst New Member

    It's funny, as a wizard I don't get any buffs, not even something nice for a raid.. I don't have mass group buff.. I get 3 buffs for myself and my ONLY function in the whole world is to teleport the raid to the guild hall after raid and DPS monsters.

    Every time I log into EQ after the last major change in 2010ish I'm the ONLY wizard in a guild of hundreds, after 15 years the developers of the game still have not thought up even a single buff. Monsters can me in 2 swings, and now the my only recourse in the world has been further been reduced by 33% even a merc available at the flick of the switch is making impossible to even get a group to play, have fun and be social within Everquest.

    Wasn't that the point of Everquest?

    It makes me sad that after so many years the developers cant come up with anything new, they cant make playable classes useful and wanted and this is a perfect example of their answer to everything.

    I really hope someone from EQ finally figures out what the developers of 1998 and 1999 really wanted to do when they started working on this game.. I really hope that rather then waste their time "fixing" the game because a pure DPS class with no other purpose in the game had the ONE ability to take down a monster slightly faster then all the other people that can buff them self's, are useful in groups and have a vast variety of spells to work with?

    SO I would like to know.. Why?

    Is it really worth it? Is it really that bad that a pure dps class with no other function in the game can kill a monster slightly faster then anyone else? Is it really worth playing or trying to find a group when everyone cam press a button and become a wizard?

    Thank You,
  17. Vizier Augur

    See the problem is deeper than the aggro, its in the raw power of the runes themselves. The aggro attached to runes is supposed to be a DOWNSIDE. If we are chain runing the mobs are supposed to take noticed and beat us down. The problem is that the mobs cant beat us down fast enough because the runes are too strong when combined with all of our other defenses. Enchanters subsequently abusing the aggro is a case of lemons being turned into lemonade. A fix was clearly needed.

    I honestly have no idea why there is so much whining going on about it. They BARELY even nerfed anything. I havent tesed it but we can probably still do the exact same thing using Poly rune instead of Unity. Maybe my time in the military has made me immune to adversity, but man...the crying going on about this change is really embarrassing to the class.
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  18. Casidia Augur

    Constantly calling others whiners and crying is also a disgrace, to the community.
    Chanter CC via agro started long ago with the Ward line, and it always had a risk.
    You just don't know what you are talking about, strong mobs can and will beat the crap out of you if they are stun immune. And there are plenty who are esp. on raids, it was a fun spell.
    That is the main point it was FUN.
    But why am i wasting my time with wankers who talk about abuse and exploit in relation with a spell that has been in game for YEARS.
  19. Vizier Augur

    Lol your argument amounts to "we've been having fun doing it for a long time so dont fix it ever". Sorry but to me thats not a good enough reason to allow a class to continue to do something exploitive. I'm still waiting for someone to name 1 non exploitive thing that we cannot do now that we could do before the fix went live. Hell. we can probably still manage the exploits. If we can, I hope they come back and fix the other runes properly as well.
  20. Astran Elder

    Vizier, please don't get this thread locked or deleted like you did the last one. Personal attacks on people presenting legitimate concerns aren't warranted in the least.

    Specific to the point, you probably should test it before you form an opinion. I had to go back to using my beastlord to pull last night (old content, I was collectible farming in BG) because my enchanter was nearly dying to the four-pulls of chetaris+dracoliches in the rooms.
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