[ENC] Gather Mana and Mind Crystals

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Vumad, Dec 27, 2023.

  1. Vumad Cape Wearer

    Can anyone explain what has happened to these AA?

    Enchanter Gather Mana is 50k. 27m recast. That's like 3 casts.

    I'm not going to throw a bunch of other classes under the bus on their mana recovery abilities but the enchanter tools to recover mana have become a complete joke.

    Gather mana either needs to recover 4 times the mana or be reusable in 1/4 the time.

    Our crystal, 13k mana... what? Make it match the mod rod and put some charges on it. There are numerous spells I have that I can't even cast after using a crystal from oom.

    I'm not weighing in too heavily on the health crystal. 30k HP is pretty pointless but there's not a huge lore argument for us to have a heal. The thing needs way more HP on it to be of value. I'd rather just get rid of the thing to free up a slot in our AA lines and give us NPT as an AA or something. 30k HP isn't really doing much for us.
  2. Szilent Augur

    an enchanter actively Mind Whirling every target they're in battle with, like, *can't* get under 90% mana. You sure you want to bring attention to the enchanter mana situation?
  3. Verily Tjark Augur

    That poor horse been kicked so many times... it's dead, Vumad. I'm sorry bro.
  4. Vumad Cape Wearer

    I guess so. It's just frustrating to die on a raid, use our mana recovery abilities and have like 15% mana.
  5. Brickhaus Augur

    ...that you actually did...

    Poor design should be fixed at some point. Top end gather mana actually gives back 72500 with the 10 ticks of 1750 after the initial 55k. At 27m36s refresh, that's a whopping 43.78 mana per second ... or 13,134 per 5m. An aa mod rod now gives 40k mana. Heck, wizard harvest aa is now up to 51k every 5 minutes.

    At this point, Gather Mana is more a get out of death penalty jail for enchanters ... while I think it should be more powerful, the recast on it needs to be reduced to 10 minutes at least if not 5.

    Again, poor modern design should be fixed in EQ. It's not the most glaring thing I'd fix (still that group NPT spell...). But as wizards learned with mana burn (actually useful and reduced timer!) ... even hell freezes over at some point.
  6. Vumad Cape Wearer

    I wont complain about mana problems the DPS classes are having if I did DPS class damage with my mana. That's balance. I'm down to negotiate here.
  7. fransisco Augur

    Not sure what your talking about. My enchanter is 110 and cant keep mana for the life of her. However I don't have a bard and BL feeding me mana (normal group is a sk, shm, ranger, and sometimes we get a cleric). I gotta use everything to not go oom in a lessons. Certainly cannot afford to cast the mind dot on every mob.
    I am decently geared for my level, so its not a gear thing. When outside of a perfect raid situation, my enchanter is ALWAYS the one to go oom first it seems.
    However I'm also not playing a box. So always nuking and charming
  8. Vumad Cape Wearer

    A trick I use to manage mana is to audio trigger the proc for GoM and GGoM. I use Strangle, alliance or Progressive ability. It really spreads out the mana. Also using Poly nuke and intellectual nuke to proc GoM while using less mana. It takes a hit to the DPS but keeps the spells rolling for more total DPS output over a longer period of time.

    You have been granted a gracious gift of mana
    you have been granted a gift of mana
  9. Szilent Augur

    You asked this literally last week on the enc Discord and were shown that Mind dot goes from 530/tick at 110 to 2195/tick at 115. You are not living in the same world as Vumad at 125, whose complaint feels so bizarre to me.
    Cadira likes this.
  10. fransisco Augur

    What question am I Asking? I'm literally stating that unless you have other classes feeding your enchanter mana and have raid level mana pres, you cannot do that. However thanks for policing the conversation. We certainly don't have enough of that around here.
  11. Szilent Augur

    Cannot do what? OP's talking about recovering from deaths on raids. He's a 120 (I presume 125 now) raid geared enchanter using level 120 (I presume 125 now) enchanter tools. This'll be the 5th year he's had the better version of Mind dot, having last cast the version you're on now pre-pandemic. Are you saying your group geared 110 enchanter's tools won't support OP's casting?

  12. fransisco Augur

    Again, thank you for policing the conversation. A+ job.
    Szilent likes this.
  13. Vumad Cape Wearer

    Yes, I am talking about Mana recovery after a raid death, not mana regen under normal circumstances.

    I have played ENC for a long time and my issue is that the masters of mana have gone from being the best in the game to being mediocre.

    Gather mana 1 was 10k mana
    Now Gather mana is 55k Mana
    How much mana did you have a level 59? How much do you have now?

    Since mind was brought up...
    L70 was 260 mana, Gather mana was 10k +500/tick.
    L125 is 18521 and Gather mana is 55k mana +1750/tick.
    A x71 increase in mana cost vs x4.8 increase in mana recovery.

    I think we can agree that the enchanter problem is not maintaining mana but rather recovering mana. We are a class that puts ourself between the mobs and the raid without the mitigation tanks have. We are the caster version of an offtank, and our primary defense, our runes, are being constantly negated by modern raid AEs. Melee runes were a critical defensive for us and raid AEs are constantly eating our melee runes since they also absorb Direct Damage spells. We die a lot. Our recovery tools have been nerfed to oblivion. (We should have melee only runes that do not absorb spell damage but that's another conversation)

    I'd also like remind everyone that a big part of our maintaining our mana is GoM and GGoM procs. We need to be able to keep casting to keep procing our mana preservation abilities. Our mana is like money, we need to have mana to conserve mana.

    Clerics got 30k mana from Veturika's Perseverance at L100 (ENC at that time was 35k+750)
    Clerics have since ballooned to 120k mana at L125 while ENC have stagnated at 55k+1750
    When was the last time you saw a cleric in a group struggling with mana? How about in a raid? These are recovery abilities, not maintenance abilities. Edit: Also note Clerics recast is 20m, ours is 27m.
    (ENC should have a version of Quiet Prayer, but thats another topic I guess.)

    Meanwhile, the Mage gather spell recovers 32k mana, and it can be refreshed with forced rejuvenation, and it doesn't matter if it takes a spell slot because they only need like 4 spells loaded. They recover almost half the mana almost three times as often and can grab an extra cast every 45m.

    We used to be the undisputed leaders in mana recovery and now we gather the same or lesser amounts of mana to all other classes who have gained these abilities. Gather mana has been neglected into near worthlessness and there's no good reason for that to have happened. The same is true of our crystals. They used to be meaningful in heal/mana and now they are irrelevant.

    Azure Mind Harvest 1 was 1k mana at L71. Now the ENC crystal is 16k mana. How much mana did enchanters have when the crystal gave 1k mana? Like 8000-12000? Now we have like 500k mana.
    Meanwhile, The L72 mage mod rod was 656 mana. The 125 Mod Rod AA gives 40k mana. Mod rods have gone from 60% of our crystal to 300% of our crystal. As our crystal takes twice the mana to cast as it recovers, the crystal is absolutely a recovery tool, not a maintenance tool like a mod rod would be. That's why our crystals were more mana than mod rods.

    (Disclaimer: Some of the numbers I used above are raw numbers and do not account for mana preservation)
    fransisco, Cadira and Szilent like this.
  14. Cadira Augur

    You're totally right on how the tools haven't scaled for current day lvls, and I'd love if they brought them up just for peace of mind of things being fairly balanced.

    ....but when I die on chanter (fairly rare, idk what this dying all the time statement was about in my experience) long as there's 2-3 mobs up all the time (certainly not always the case) I have no problem getting mana back with mind dot. I don't think enchanters are really much worse off than other casters who die.
  15. fransisco Augur

    Why are you pooing on that? The "x class are fine even though everyone else is 20x better" is a horrible argument thats common on eq boards. No one is saying enchanters cannot function. This isn't a contest to prove you're better than everyone else. However pretending that everything is "fine" when everyone else is many times better is just wrong.
    We're happy that you always play in a situation where everyone can feed you mana and you can function and recover due to their help. That doesn't change the fact that the enchanter class is dependent on everyone else, when out of all classes this is the one that shouldn't depend on others for mana.
  16. Cadira Augur

    I think you're confused. Nothing in my comment referred to the enchanter being fed mana. Lol

    I was saying the enchanter can solely keep themselves full of mana in a lot of common raid situations. They are strong In this case among the other casters. Do you not know how to read or do you not know how enchanters work?
  17. fransisco Augur

    There is no such thing as "soley by yourself" and "raid situation". They are comically incapatible.
  18. Cadira Augur

    Cute deflection. But in the context, sure it makes sense. On a pit fight raid, you could start the raid with 10% mana and finish with 100%. With literally only enchanter tools. Not really the point of this thread tho.

    Anyways, all I was saying is I agree that the tools should be better and keep up with modern times but my experience with after death situations and rate at which my enchanter dies is different then vumad.
  19. Vumad Cape Wearer

    I spoke to an ENC that was parsing well on raids. After digging into the parse, they were dotting everything, above average DPS, but their beguiller synnergy procs were 30-40% of the rest of the ENC, among other issues. They were playing wizard at the expense of their group. That's a really bad flex for an ENC. My flex is when I'm 20-25 on the parse with all 3 of my mages in the top 5.

    Our job on the raid is to make the other casters do more damage. Some of that is aDPS, another part of doing that is standing between the casters and the mobs. My linear positioning is always MOB, Tank, ENC, everyone else. ENC having recovery abilities equal to that of the people they are dying for is not a great argument from my camp.

    Enchanter deaths are a record lows because CC is being made a mockery. We get to CC some non-aggro rabbits in LS. That's cool, but not quite as cool as the increasingly common strat of lets just tank and AE the mezable mobs because tanks are OP.

    fransisco likes this.
  20. fransisco Augur

    Sure. No bard song, No mod rods, no beastlord buffs, no potions, no nothing. Oh wait. You always have all those things on raids, and certainly used them in this hyper specific situation you are thinking of.

    However lets take this further. The devs DO read these boards. You are going out of your way to falsely claim that enchanters don't need anything changed. Your pretending all the support you get on a raid means enchanters are perfectly fine at the bottom of the heap. What you are arguing matters beyond trying to flex your pixels.