Druid Wishes

Discussion in 'Priests' started by Kuvani, Aug 8, 2018.

  1. Brohg Augur

    Eh, feels like a social thing, not a game balance thing. Druids and paladins have very equivalent core healing tools (different extras), but paladins just don't encounter the same expectations from other players.
  2. Wulfhere Augur

    Druids did get a healing boost with AA consolidation recently.

    1. Survival AA and spell gem are on separate cool downs, so druids can have two of them ready now
    2. Blessing of Ro AA has a healing ToT recourse on short cool down
  3. FawnTemplar Augur


    I haven't healed Stratos solo but I just solo healed all five trials.
  4. Ambition Apprentice


    I solo healed all of the trials and it was possible. I don't think anyone can disagree that druid healing needs some help, but it isn't as dire as throwing the other two priests under the bus. The Vida line does need some attention, absolutely. Calling out another class because they have something you want is a little extreme. Use Dicho and your remote spell as healing tools, if you aren't already. That's five spells right there, plus a couple AA's, along with a heal clicky such as Small Manisi Branch or the RoS version. Bosquetender's will help enhance your heal spells.

    I'll go ahead and bring up clerics, because why not. Yes clerics are great healers, there's no doubt about that. Be jealous all you want, they deserve it. However, have you mained a cleric? In group or in raids? All they have is healing. Druids get ports, clerics do not. Druids get fast feets, clerics do not. Druids get an AA levitate, clerics do not. Druids get an AA invis, clerics get to use invis pots that stack up to 20. Druids get track and forage, clerics do not/not worth anything. Druids can dps on any mob, pretty well. Clerics can only really dps on undead, and even then, it's nothing to write home about. Even on undead mobs that clerics can fully dps, druids will always be more dps. Also druids are adps, clerics are not.

    I've never played a shaman so I can't speak on that. I've mained both a cleric and a druid in pretty good raiding guilds. So you can try and throw the other priests under the bus, but the bus ran over clerics a long time ago. Druid heals could use some work, but throwing a tantrum because someone else is better than you, in one aspect, will not get you what you want. Especially when a class doesn't deserve it.
    FawnTemplar and Axel2 like this.
  5. Cindane Journeyman

    Please don't turn the OP's thread requesting improvements to our class into a battle of the "higher priests." I also mained a raid cleric for many years in some amazing guilds - having to switched to druid who is now in a raiding guild on AB. We druids are not asking to be clerics - we just need to be able to solo heal group content without having to work like a "demi-god" player 24x7. That's how I feel when asked to solo heal in TBL. First day of release, I solo healed "Fight Fire" w/ absolutely no crowd control and a group full of silks. No idea how we beat that w/ a less-than-ideal group make up. Now I'm up to the Mearatas' flagging portion of progression. Named like that first mob in "Contract of War" - How on earth is a druid with these long-heal cooldowns per spell supposed to heal that?! We were gifted w/ having an exceptional guild cleric w/ us for our run. But going forward later into the expansion, druids like me with VERY high playtimes are frequently expected to solo heal nearly everything. Non-healer classes DO NOT want to hear that we druids can't heal a mission. (I'm maxxed healing AA and fully VP2 raid-geared.) So it's not lack of tools, gear or skill. We just need some simple attention to our group heal particularly. I asked for this 4 months ago on this same thread above, and we got nothing. Like others have said, just a "we're looking into this" from a dev would be helpful. Thanks.
    FawnTemplar likes this.
  6. Belkar_OotS Augur

    My intent in posting obviously isn't to get anyone nerfed. I play all 3 priest classes and I want them all to be fun and unique while still being capable characters within the vision.

    I do need to eat some crow since I came in a bit emotionally charged and we did get a couple AA to help with our healing which I personally am still assessing.

    In this particular case I was playing my tank and observing the group druid struggle and eventually log. As much as some druids don't like or want to play as a healer, the vision has clumped the cleric shaman and druid classes primarily as healers for well over a decade.

    I like that paladins are capable healers, (and I don't play one), but I do believe that paladins would outheal a druid in most situations that didn't involve prolonged healing as druids are very man's efficient healers. (Conjecture).

    Another possible change I would support is updating our survival (and the shaman version too) spells to heal a higher minimum percent of health, so that everyone is healed approximately half their health with a little extra done for a couple that were lower. As I recall the spell was introduced as a shaman and druid version of cleric epic and divine arbitration. It would be nice if it functioned more like a group heal instead of mostly an emergency heal for 1 player.
  7. Brohg Augur


    I think saying "the vision" is a way of putting druid's perceived station on developers, but it's primarily player expectation. Developers are the ones who've placed druids very very clearly on a level with paladins. Paladins are a tank class with a hecka robust healing secondary role; druids are a dps (also debuffs) class with a hecka robust healing secondary role. Just look at the actual healing spells to see how equivalent:

    Curavida vs Merciful Touch
    Revitalization+Adrenaline vs Merciful Light
    Lunasalve vs Wave of Expiation
    Survival vs Expiation+Grief

    Now, paladins' best heals aren't those - their best ones are those tailored to their primary role, the ones that support tanking like Valiant, Protective, Censure lines. But in the same way, druids' best aren't the ones listed above either, it's the ones that serve druids' primary role, dps (also debuffs) like the reflects/recourses on Winds, Remote, Frost/Ro/Breath.

    Trying to heal like a cleric makes druids unhappy; druids don't have cleric tools that's clear and I get that. But the solution isn't to be more clericky, imo. Also I don't think the dials need to be turned very much, though.

    Unlink fire & cold remotes. Push one set of them onto timer 14, the spells there aren't actually using it anyhow. See how that plays for a year.
    Ambition and Wulfhere like this.
  8. Wulfhere Augur

    Trying to heal like a cleric makes paladins unhappy too.

    Slight refinement on your spell assessment:

    Revitalization vs Burst of Morninglight
    Adrenaline vs Merciful Light

    Paladins also have Aurora for which I can't think of a druid equivalent as they cannot chain cast any group heal they have.

    I think paladins have more direct healing options then druids although such spells (Touch, Light, Aurora) are rarely used because it's just not how we play. Some top paladins don't even memorize Burst anymore and restrict themselves to solid in-group healing (except Lay Hands and now Gift of Life). This is becoming a thing since healing alliances if not before.

    In raids, I see druids as the primary healer in (caster) DPS groups more often then I see paladins in that role in their groups, even tho paladins have better tools. If paladins had any decent Adps abilities then I bet that would change and druids would be free to focus on DPS. If a time comes when druid Adps falls behind then that would be a "priest" tipping point between the two classes too. Consider 5 live wizards + paladin vs 3.5 (avg) live wizards + druid for total DPS towards a raid.
  9. Darchon_Xegony Augur

    Really the number of recast timer groups the Druid class has is ridiculous.

    The Remote fire and cold spells shouldn’t be linked together in the same timer. Nor should they even be linked with past expansion versions. Clerics have both their lines unlinked from each other and from past expansion versions, it doesn’t really make sense that the Druid ones are.

    The Adrenaline and Rejuvenation lines of heals shouldn’t be linked with their past variants. Clerics can cycle several expansions old Remedy if they want to spam Heal. Shamans can cycle several expansions of Reckless if they want to spam Heal. Both of which they can accomplish with 3 spell slots devoted. With Adrenaline’s 15s recast and Rejuvenation’s 12s recast, druids would have to devote 5 spell slots to being able to accomplish the same span-style healing that spikey damage content demands of a group healer and they’d be required to scribe House of Thule (level 90) spells to accomplish this with no gap in healing. In no way would this be overpowered, it’s really only logical.

    All priests should stop getting their Vida, Light or Mending spells updated or they should all be made modern with 0.5s or 1.0s cast times. Honestly this is the real solution to the healing issue. Make the “fast/Emergency” heals really fill that fast/Emergency role with it being a higher raw value like Adrenaline or Reckless, or having extra benefits like Remedy for healing low HP targets. Make those Emergency heals lean more heavily into those secondary mitigation / extra healing power values and Link all classes versions of these spells so you’re limited to using them less often but you have your bread and butter core heals with reasonable modern cast times of 0.5-1.0s to keep up with current content.

    The Lunar Group Heal line has too long of a cast time, and too long of a recast time. Too much AE Damage comes from group content lately and having a spell with a base 4.5s cast and 12s recast time doesn’t hold up against a lot of this AE Damage. Yea the AAs reduce this to 6s recast but there’s still the long cast time you have to wait on for a much faster paced game now a days. While yes you have two survivals those are on much longer reuses.
    Outlander Engine likes this.
  10. Brohg Augur

    Yeah that all feels to me like "shouldn't you just be playing a cleric?" territory. If you vertically unlink all the remotes to make them Contravention heals, and vertically unlink the adren & rejuv to make them Remedy heals, and make Luna into Syllable group heal… do you still get crazygood dps burns? do you still get mob debuffs, instant invis, chromo beam root, proc auras & black wolf?

    Mentioning clerics in any discussion of druid abilities weakens the position. The clear intention is expressed by the existing-since-forever spells: druids heal on a level with Paladins, with a nicely robust set of tools secondary to their core play.
  11. Outlander Engine Elder

    Changing mains is a huge effort.

    Your "since forever" and mine differ.

    Druids used to be better healers than shaman. They were just a *smidge* behind clerics. They were worlds better than paladins.

    I'd rather see clerics get more utility/dps/toys and druids get more healing.
  12. Brohg Augur


    Revi+Adrenaline are faster heals that combine to cast twice in 2 ticks. That's equivalent to what Merciful Light accomplishes on its own, with a bit of give&get on cast time vs raw size.

    I dismiss Burst & Aurora both as pretty wonky side spells (in much the same fashion I dismiss Promised and Alliance for druids) because, well, they're pretty wonky.

    Specifically , Burst works as a rescue heal, but preventing the cast of further spells for a time is a huge trade off. Anyone whose cast count isn't substantially reduced by including use of Burst probably wasn't playing hard otherwise, and that playing hard may well have kept rescuing someone from being necessary. Casting Burst feels like putting one's self in the corner for messing up.

    Aurora is chain castable but isn't fast, isn't big, isn't efficient, can't cast out of group. Chain castable is all it is. Its scaling from introduction at level 80 has been questionable since it's immune to so many boostings & focusings.

    Druids & paladins both have usable and variably puissant extras, and boosts, and AAs and such. The near-absolute overlap of the core spells is my main point.
  13. Wulfhere Augur

    Okay that might make sense on paper, but well paladins stopped using Light when Burst was introduced. Because Protective and Light are on the same timer, Light will never be used.

    Burst has been a mainstay for paladins since it's introduction, well until the past year or so. Light was always marginal even before it was superseded by Protective.
    This anecdote gets to the current scenarios. For a paladin to cast out-of-group heals is a big gameplay "feature" of the class that has gone by the wayside. Paladin playstyle has become much less like a cleric and much more like a shadow knight since the introduction of target-of-target spells. Just as Light was never well received, Burst has fallen out of favor.

    Out-of-group healing by paladins it becoming "not a Thing". Otherwise, Valiant heals are in the same boat and only considered good because of its cast time and aggro.

    Sure and paladins are in the advantage, yet we rarely even consider memorizing the spells being criticized, which hints to a class design and balance problem.
  14. Wulfhere Augur

    Continuing the druid vs paladin as-healer comparison, druids are relegated to using spell archetypes that paladins deem unworthy of even memorizing.

    Vida vs Touch - no thanks
    Revitalize vs Burst/Light - mostly no and thanks
    Adrenaline vs Light - no thanks
    Survival vs Aurora - no thanks

    Luna vs Wave - yes, well with different trade offs
    Survival vs Expiation - yes, well but self only

    For druids to forge ahead in the same vein as paladins, they too should be able to forego these anachronistic direct heal spell lines and rely on Remote nuke and debuff ToT heals to do their jobs plus un-linked and/or lower recast times on Luna and Survival group heals. Paladins are already there. Druids have fallen behind them. Druids need some tree hugging from the Devs right?

    I believe the core game play mechanic here is about targeting. Classes that must toggle targets to do their job vs classes that sit on a single target and spam cast. Design is steadily simplifying game play to the latter (because toggling targets takes skill or is a pita) which oh btw favors boxing and mashing.
  15. Brohg Augur

    Advantaged, really? Like, y'all have your things, sure. But two Survivals is good. and Alliance, and White Wolf to boost everything with half uptime (full uptime if you're selfish), and +spec:Alter aug. I think Paladin probably has to be healing specifically themselves to be advantaged substantially.
  16. Darchon_Xegony Augur

    I don’t even understand why a tank who fills arguably the most important role in a group is being compared to a priest.

    Priests should be comparable to other priests in the group realm. They should each be viable to keep a group alive through a mission or exp/grind group. Clerics have 3 remedies they can cycle continuously to heal with 0.5s cast time. Shamans have 3 Reckless heals they can cycle continuously to heal with 1.0s casttime. Druids can cast 1 Revitalization in 0.5s, cast 1 Adrenaline in 1.8s, at which point they need to rely on 2.6s cast Vida heals for the next two casts which means you’re landing heals every 4.6s during this period which is often too slow for current content, especially with under geared or Heaven forbidden merecenary tanks. This is the issue.

    They could easily make this a non-issue by changing the level 108 Cleric Light, Druid Vida and the Shaman Mending lines of spells from 3.8s base cast time down to 1.0s base cast time. This way everyone has the ability to heal more quickly. Or they could simply let druids function like the other two priests do, forget those old bread and butter Heal lines and instead load a few versions of one line and cycle through them to allow fast casting heals to occur.

    Nuking and healing has always been a druid’s Wheelhouse. The combination of those two abilities defines the class, while many classes do get both a Nuke and a heal spell, our class gets about 6 of each. Even our Dico line is a Nuke/ToT Heal. See our BP clicks, white/Black wolf, gift of sylvan / wrath of nature AAs, etc. The class has been designed the last 20 expansions with these two strengths in mind. Which is why I find it so disappointing that they decide to limit our ability to cast these spells which merge the two pillars of the class by linking both the fire and cold lines we have AND have them all share a timer so that we cannot even use past expansion ones. This should be a defining ability for our class but due to those timers we can use it every once in awhile, when really they should be most of what we cast in a group scenario and a decent bit of what we cast on a raid.
  17. Wulfhere Augur

    Because, as Brohg points out, the two classes have had comparable healing tools for a long time. Druids are struggling to use theirs in the main healer role while paladins don't use most of those spells at all (but could if in that role).

    Some of the restrictions on druid fire vs cold spell linking makes sense since they debuff the same stats in the same slots, i.e. they don't stack for their primary purpose, healing recourses aside. Druids are meant to primarily attack one element or the other, not both.

    I think it's been said before on these forums that it would help druid's a lot to unlink Rejuvilation line from Timer 15, so they can memorize 2 or 3 of them and chain their quickest heals, at the cost of spell slots. This would be consistent with what's been done with other classes (clerics, paladins, etc).
  18. Tatanka Joe Schmo

    Also of note, we also have the remote and dicho spells, with the remotes having a short(er) cast time, so that helps a bit. However, they have to be targeted at the mob, not the tank, so target swapping is involved, which is a PITA when TSHTF. Which is why I've repeatedly asked that we could get a feature which EQ2 has had since launch, where detris cast on a player land on their target, and benis cast on a mob land on their target. So no crazy target swapping in EQ2.

    Also available when the mob is targeted is the Blessing of Ro AA, which has a smallish reflected heal, but is available during GCD.
  19. Kuvani Journeyman

    I have no idea why this thread has to come to what it has. Clerics, Shamans, and Paladins all heal better than a Druid. Arguing otherwise seems like a waste of time to me since all of the data can easily be parsed or proven. On top of that, it really doesn't even matter if they are significantly or slightly better than a Druid in that capacity. I made this thread because I wanted to give ideas to help the Druid class and to collaborate with other Druids who wish to do the same. I don't wish to trivialize anything for us, and I tried to make each suggestion fair to other classes. Most of my suggestions were Quality of Life honestly. It truly boggles my mind that people are still arguing against Druids receiving better heals.

    I agree there is no reason to throw any other class under the bus. I've always hated when people do that. The only reason I brought up any other class in my OP was to give an example of what already exists or how it would not allow Druids to overpower another class in any manner. I also already have a more "in depth heal comparison" between the classes on a spreadsheet, and I really don't think there's any reason to post something like that on the forums - at least to try and get another class nerfed, which is all anyone on these forums would use them for. I have actually had that spreadsheet for a long time (it gets updated between expansions/patches), but I made it for the same reasons I made spreadsheets comparing Druid nukes, DoTs, aDPS, and SPAs to other relevant classes - for my own knowledge. Call me a nerd, but I like being informed and aware of what exists in the game - especially when it relates to or affects my class. I'm not going to get into every little detail outlining the differences in our heals and heal-related tools because it's unnecessary, and this post has already been completely derailed.

    Druid healing needs attention. There is no arguing it. I already posted what I would like to see for our class in regard to healing, and I'm not going to continue to justify those requests.

    I will say that I do not agree with both the Adrenaline and Revitalization lines becoming unlinked. I think that may be asking for a tad much. I could get definitely get on board with one of the two lines becoming unlinked though. I would really like Curavida's cast time reduced. It's crazy and frustrating to me that we rely so much on it. For all I care, the Shaman and Cleric equivalents could be reduced as well for a "blanket" kind of reduction. As long as these heals get some attention, I'd be happy because our single target heals are struggling.

    The damage dealt on both tanks and the entire group has increased significantly this expansion, and Druids continue to fall further behind. I understand perfectly well how to play a Druid by DPSing when appropriate and utilizing more than just our obvious heals when keeping a group alive. Using Dicho and Remote with a heal click just doesn't really cut it though. It helps our tank healing in group content, sure, but even that is often not enough. I also don't mind swapping my target often (it's an important aspect of our class), but those two spells have no relevance at all when healing an entire group through some kind of AoE. Our group heal is horrible and one of the things I want changed the most. As it procs our synergy and AoEs are rough this expansion, it is a spell that I use quite often. There is really no good reason that Druids should not receive a reduction in recast and/or cast time on the Lunasalve line. Yes, I understand "Druids have Survival and Wildtender's," but that doesn't help me when AoE's are going off every few seconds.

    I won't deny that receiving our Blessing of Ro AA and Wildtender's absolutely helped, but those two abilities have not been enough to close the gaps in our healing. I was beyond stoked when those changes happened, but we're still far from where we should be. Shamans got a similar AA to Wildtender's, and they are already leaps and bounds ahead of Druids. So what?

    In general, only stating that Druids get "X" ability or "X" spell means very little to me. Thanks for letting me know what my class receives? Many of the "arguments" against Druids receiving better heals state that Druids receive lines that both of the other Priest classes also have, and ours are often inferior. For example, the Cleric Contravention line is not linked, and it heals and nukes for more than the Druid equivalent. Quite frankly, I don't really care what Clerics (or Shamans and Paladins for that matter) receive. It honestly has no effect on my class at all. My previous statement about Clerics was more in response to anyone using our Remotes as some amazing argument against better Druid healing.

    Now, "Druids heal on a level with Paladins" makes me lol. Paladins are straight up better healers. I don't even understand why Paladins were even brought up in the first place as this was a thread discussing the areas that Druids need help in. Yes, Druids have other tools that other priests don't get, and it should be that way because that is how our class was designed. It's the same way that Shamans also have amazing tools outside of healing. It should be that way. However, we are also relied upon as a solo healer, so we shouldn't be compared to a tank. Our primary role is NOT DPS, and our best heals are NOT our debuff and remote heals. We should absolutely be DPSing and utilizing those tools because it is an important aspect of our class, but they are not our primary spells and role. I just don't even understand why this was brought up in the first place, especially when a lot of it is just incorrect. I also really don't understand how the specialize alteration aug plays into any of this, especially since it's an aug I've replaced unless I am using my healing belt after a death. Also, most Druids don't ever have the chance to use their alliance, and it's a tool that every other priest gets. I could also sit here and name abilities Paladins get that have no Druid equivalent as well as other random things in the game that Paladins can utilize. But so what? Really though, Paladins are actually used often in my guild as a caster group healer on raids. Honestly, a Paladin is a better/preferred healer for a Necro group since Druids provide little aDPS to a Necro. I just really don't even understand why this thread has even come to comparing Druid and Paladin healing anyhow.

    So back to the post that started this: Healing TBL was rough - both in raids and in groups. On raids, we're lucky that alliances and splashes exist - and that we're not in charge of keeping the tanks alive. Someone asked about groups specifically though. It is absolutely doable since I've been done with progression for a week now, but there were an insane amount of deaths for group content, especially given the amount of runes and CCing my enchanter was doing. I have to say that I sincerely empathize for any Druid who doesn't have a fully raid-geared group and a tank with TBL gear (or an SK or Pally).

    Finally, no one is trying to put Druid healing on par with Shaman or Cleric healing. It shouldn't be, and again, I really don't care how it compares. I care about the Druid class and how we perform in current content. Making changes to our group heal, remotes, and one of our single target heals is not going to make us equal or even close to equal to either of those classes. I very much enjoy difficult content as well as being challenged within the game. I'm not trying to trivialize anything. The purpose of this thread was to act as a way to advocate for the Druid class and collaborate with others, and better healing is just something that is beyond due for our class. I really hope this thread could get back to that or at least move on from the ridiculous comparisons to other classes.
    Cindane and gotwar like this.
  20. Darchon_Xegony Augur

    Honestly the Adrenaline line is even sort of slow with 1.8s cast time. I could definitely understand leaving it’s timer linked and let it fill the role of “highest power raw Heal”.

    I’d definitely prefer the Vida line (and other priests lines) gets dropped to 1.0s cast time for all classes to address the speed of incoming damage that the game has accelerated to in the past several expansions.

    However if they wanted to removing the recast timer group for the Revitalization line would also suffice to allow druids to be able to cover single target healing more quickly.

    The group healing situation either druids need a new tool or our existing group Heal could use its base cast time dropped to 3 seconds and maybe 1-2 more seconds in recast reduction would help.