This will attempt to describe what I feel are my two biggest issues with the Druid class. Those being healing and survivability (and everything those two subjects encompass). Healing Initially, let us look at the single target healing comparison for the Druid and the shaman. Druid: Sterivida Rk. II 1: Increase Hitpoints by 10462 Mana: 1087 Skill: Alteration Casting Time: 3.75 Recast Time: 1.5 Fizzle Time: 1.5 Range: 200 vs Shaman Blezon's Mending Rk. II 1: Increase Hitpoints by 10491 Mana: 1647 Skill: Alteration Casting Time: 3.75 Recast Time: 1.5 Fizzle Time: 1.5 Range: 200 As you can see in the two staple heals for the classes, they are nearly identical. Druid: Adrenaline Rush Rk. II 1: Increase Hitpoints by 14760 2: 35% Chance to trigger: Adrenaline Rush Effect II Mana: 2354 Skill: Alteration Casting Time: 1.8 Recast Time: 15 Fizzle Time: 1.5 Range: 200 vs Shaman Reckless Restoration Rk. II 1: Increase Hitpoints by 13397 Recourse Effect Reckless Restoration Recourse II 1: Decrease Hitpoints by 8039 Mana: 2625 Skill: Alteration Casting Time: 1 Recast Time: 13 Fizzle Time: 1.5 Range: 200 In this comparison between the next line of heals, the Druid has a 1300ish hp stronger heal, at the cost of it taking nearly twice as long to cast. The mana difference is less than 300, with the shaman one being slightly more. The shaman version has a slightly quicker recast time as well. Vivification Rk. II 1: Increase Hitpoints by 10652 Mana: 1826 Skill: Alteration Casting Time: 0.5 Recast Time: 12Fizzle Time: 1.5 Range: 200 This is the only heal that the shaman does not have a direct comparison to that I am aware of. It has a long recast while being fast casting. This single heal is the only “edge” Druids have over their non-cleric priest counterpart in the single target healing arena, while giving up all healing over time options, and lacking in group healing options. Another option for a Druid healing spell is the Remote line. Remote Sunfire Rk. II Classes: DRU/98 Skill: Conjuration Mana: 2204 Target: Single Range: 200' Resist: Fire -600 Reflectable: No Casting: 1s, Recast: 24s, Timer: 11, Rest: 1.5s 1: Decrease Current HP by 9782 2: Cast: Sunfire Enervation II Text: You are singed by a destructive sunburst. Burns your target for @1 damage and heals your target's target. [34930] Sunfire Enervation II Classes: DRU/98 Mana: 50 Target: Targets Target Range: 200' Beneficial: Blockable Casting: 1s 1: Increase Current HP by 9782 Due to the long recast, it can not be used that often. In CotF Druids received Remote Moonfire. Remote Moonfire Rk. II Classes: DRU/99 Skill: Conjuration Mana: 2005 Target: Single Range: 200' Resist: Cold -120 Reflectable: No Casting: 1s, Recast: 24s, Timer: 11, Rest: 1.5s 1: Decrease Current HP by 9293 2: Cast: Moonfire Enervation II Text: You are chilled by a frigid moonbeam. Freezes your target for @1 damage and heals your target's target. [40191] Moonfire Enervation II Classes: DRU/99 Mana: 50 Target: Targets Target Range: 200' Beneficial: Blockable Casting: 1s 1: Increase Current HP by 9782 Comparing these two, Moonfire does 500 less damage for 200 less mana while being a cold nuke (instead of fire) with a much worse resist adjustment (-120 vs -600). Since these spells also share the same cool down, this limits the usefulness on Moonfire to “useless 99.999 percent of the time“. Once per expansion you hit an event where you sometimes can’t use fire. Should these spells have their timers unlinked, it would give Druids a unique way to heal and dps. It would make them different than the other two priests classes while giving them a clear direction in what their healing role is (for once). Survivability I will get the obvious out fast. Druids take the worst hits out of all the priests, giving them the worst survivability. Druids arguably have less than cloth based classes due to the lack of things such as self runes, etc. Preincarnation in its current form is adequate enough, but since it is hardly a Druid unique ability it can’t be pointed at saying “ this is your survival, it makes up for your other lackings, be happy “. I say this because shamans also have it, along with a higher rank, more AC, and if they do die they are easily back at a sustainable mana level after a rez. The biggest issue with the survivability, is the lack of a way for a Druid to get back into the fight after a death (often due to the low survivability). Everyone dies, I get that. Every other priest class has a variety of self options to get back into the fight. Every INT casting class does as well. Druids are the only remaining class that must beg others for help after a rez. They must also hope the classes they are begging have their abilities up. Druids desperately need a way to get themselves back into the fight after a rez. Druids should not be the only priest (or casting class) with this issue. I do not see anything giving Druids such a great benefit that they need to be hampered in this manner. Conclusion Druids have always been termed as the utility/dps priest class that specializes in single target healing. Over time utility has been spread out, single target healing has stagnated, and the best option to be a DPS Priest (Remote lines) have their timers locked preventing this. Throw in the inability to get back into the fray after an untimely death, and Druids seem to lack a class direction and need assistance. Druids most often have to pick between a lackluster cleric or lackluster wizard role, rarely getting the opportunity to combine these fluidly. It takes a high degree of class skill and knowledge (and being over geared helps) to be able to adequately play the role of a Priest whom can deal damage at the same time. Take away the ability to twist in damage dealing while healing, and you are left with someone pretending very badly to be a cleric. I personally feel a few tweaks such as giving Druids a way to re-enter the battle after a rez and the unlinking of Sunfire/Moonfire Remotes would be a solid start in addressing the main issues effecting the class.
Should run the cleric spells right along the druid spells, would be a better comparison as a "lackluster cleric". Dying sucks and short of help you are out of luck, it is the downside to dying. I remember when it was important to not die and relying on others and my own skills to make it not happen.
I was focusing mostly on the druid v shaman comparison, as it is typically a given that clerics have many more options than either class for healing. As far as dying, I am not willing to just sweep it under the rug as " it is the downside to dying ". Druids are the only wis/int based class that has this issue. If there was some amazing benefit in a trade off druids were getting, I could accept this. There isn't.
I think it's been said enough, the reason druids do not get an instant manaback ability is their best in the game manapres. On the other hand, clerics and i'm sure other classes get abilities that make their manapres worse.
I refuse to accept that a druid must be the only class that is absolutely useless after a rez, unless they are able to find and beg a person who has a mana return ability up to give them. Each class (concerning clerics, shaman, and druids) has a different way of dealing with mana. I have yet to see any of them have regular mana issues under normal circumstances. Still, the druid is the only class that has the issue with getting back into the fight after a rez. The mana pres of a druid is nothing special when compared to the tools other healers get to keep them in the game. It is merely what brings us to the same level as the other two. Put any restriction you want on this mana gain ability to limit its use to be only when a druid is recently rezzed. I have never seen it "said enough" as to why a Druid should be the *only* wis/int based class with no mana recovery ability.
Don't forget when comparing heals that shaman heals have a higher cost associated with our heals. Our main heal costs over 50% more mana to cast for similar healing effect and the fast heal you linked costs about 10% more mana with the added cost of taking 8k hp from the shaman which means we can't cast that heal on ourselves all for a heal that is 90% as effective as a druid heal.
Of course I am not ignoring that Shaman have a higher mana cost that in the end doesn't matter because the Shaman will simply Canni.
Your refusal to accept things does not make you right. druid heal post 85 started to mirror cleric spells almost to the amount (clerics have a 5% innate bonus to heals to offset) shamans started to follow suit but at a considerable mana penalty (hi canni being super outdated penalty) I know plenty of druids that are quite good healers and have no issue doing it for hours on end without stopping, just like the other 2 priests. Perhaps you need to take some notes.
And because of canni we have a much higher cost on spells then druids do. I agree druids need some help in the mana regen department but if you are going to compare spells from different classes make sure you compare everything not just the parts you think will help your argument,
Sounds like you agree then that things are currently balanced. I know everyone wants their own class to be the best at everything, but that's not good for the game.
As a shammy 1: Decrease Hitpoints by 8039, you as a druid get no damage casting the heal. We do. So not only do we have to heal the other person we now have to watch our hp as well. Reckless Restoration Rk. II 1: Increase Hitpoints by 13397 Recourse Effect Reckless Restoration Recourse II 1: Decrease Hitpoints by 8039 Mana: 2625 Skill: Alteration Casting Time: 1 Recast Time: 13 Fizzle Time: 1.5 Range: 200
I by no way stated everything is balanced. What I specifically said that was unbalanced, was that Druids are the only class lacking a way to get themselves back into a fight after a rez. I stated that Druids by no means have been given an advantage in something that outweighs their need for this ability that every single other INT/WIS bar class received. I do not want the Druid class to be the best at everything. I did not even imply this. I am pretty sure I asked for two specific things. One would put Druids *on par* with every single other casting based class. The other would for once give Druids a class direction in the healing/dps department. I would like the area of healing while DPSing explored and I feel a solid first step is unlinking Sunfire/Moonfire. If you feel these two things are making Druids the best at everything, then I am not sure what else to say.
I acknowledge that can be a downfall. I also acknowledge every time I have been in a shaman's group during a raid a group based heal over time has been up. I am by no means saying shamans single target heals are better than Druid heals. I am saying the edge Druids have is very slight in comparison to the edge shaman receive in the other areas of healing. I am not asking for shaman healing to be nerfed. I am not asking for HoTs or better group heals for Druids. I would like to see a more clearly defined class direction for Druids. If we are supposed to be better single target group healers, give us tools to be noticably better. Ideally, I would prefer Sunfire/Moonfire being unlinked giving Druids a unique way to heal through DPS.
If you want a more clearly defined class direction for druids then why did you start it by comparing druid and shaman heals?
My comparison was to show that while Druids often get known as the single target healer, our single target heals aren't actually that much better compared to a class that is not known for their single target heals. If we have slightly better than shaman single target heals, while lagging behind (obviously) in group heals/HoTs (I am not asking for improvements here), then what is our direction? I didn't want to merely say " druids have no direction, help plz". I wanted to show at least a little info showing that the direction Druids are perceived to have just doesn't exist to the extent most people think. I wanted to outline a problem that I feel exists, then give what I feel would be steps in fixing the problem.
And do you know the reason why the single target heals are balanced healing wise? Because a while back it was realized that shaman also need to be able to function as healers and if healing spells where balanced based on the amount healed that wouldn't work out in the long run and they switched to balance healing spells based on mana cost. But again your just looking at basic numbers and ignoring the fact that it costs a shaman 50% more mana to do the same amount of healing and while we do get tools to gain mana back they do take away from time healing others and can lead the the death of the shaman with bad timing. While you may want to help improve druids just pointing at two spells and trying to claim a balance issue based on only one part of those spells is not going to help especially when looking at the whole spell shows it in a different light.
When neither class has to worry about mana cost right now, the total mana cost is a moot point. The Druid class lags horribly behind in group healing. I can accept that. We have near equal healing power in single target healing. If this remains, there has to be SOME advantage to be a druid in the healing department. You can't expect me to accept " hey, you are a priest that groups heals absolutely horribly compared to the other two priests, while having very slightly better single target heals than one of the priests! ". That is called horrible balance. I wanted to take the walk down this path to get to my end objective, as far as healing is concerned. I wanted to show that is a clear need for something to be done. Unlinking Sunfire/Moonfire would be a way to give Druids something unique, while preserving the current healing numbers, and without having to create a new spell line out of the blue. I wanted to be clear I wasn't asking for something without a reason.
He has two very legitimate and very reasonable requests. One, unlink the heal-nukes so that druids will get one usable spell from CotF. Notice i say usable, cause while other classes weren't happy with their spells, druids have absolutely no reason to buy any version of theirs. This would give druids a do DPS while healing niche which no priest has now, and it doesn't require devs to do much "footwork." Two, give druids the "get back into the game after a death in raid" ability that was promised 2 years ago. No one should be arguing against this. Every raid where your druid ends up on ramp cause his heal landed first means hes going to die, which means he is going to watch the rest of his group die before he dies yet again. Or any other of the myriad mid-raid deaths which is an annoyance for every other class, but a game breaker for us. We have made a ton of suggestions, thus far they keep "forgetting about us." Why he compared the druid and shaman heals to make this point, i am not sure except to say maybe that we no longer have enough of an edge in the single target heal department and then suggest that INSTEAD on better single target heals we have the newer DPS while healing heals in their place. A good suggestion. It enables both classes to remain suitable healers for group content while adding in an alternate replacement to our lack of group healing. This still wont help me keep a group up during those heavy AE raids that were developed with what i can only imagine a cleric or shaman in every group. So shaman still win!
This is where I was going. I wanted to show that while its obvious Druids lack in the group healing department compared to our healing counterparts, we are also nothing special in the single target. Rather then change the healing values or introduce a new spell line, I felt it would be better to explore the Nuke->Heal spell lines and effects. This would give Druids a unique way to heal, and fulfill a different specific role from the other two priests. There are more ways this can be explored as well. I just feel that first unlinking these two spell timers would be a good start. At that point we can evaluate their full effects and make a better informed decision on if anything else needs to be done. I didn't want to come to the table and just say " we need the nuke->heal spell lines opened, plz! ". I wanted to show that there may in fact be a need for this to be done.
Man, that was an aweful lot to read to get to your point. Unlinking the recast timers on Remote Moonfire and Sunfire would be a good start. More Solutions, less complaining. Short as possible (Less words typed, the better) and to the point. I don't mean that as a dig, but Developers tend to lean towards people who have ideas rather then complaints I'd like to think. I liked this idea from Darchon_Xegony for a way for both Druids AND Rangers to be able to get mana back. Make it a little less for Rangers on the mana returned though. Only problem I see with that is what zone would you be able to forage it up in. Lately though they seem to be ignoring everyones ideas across all classes across the board and have been swinging away with the nerf bat with Call Of The Forsaken. I'm kind of confused where they even want to take EQ now-a-days, let alone the Druid class. Yeah I know what all you druids are thinking "But druid ideas have always been ignored" well I wouldn't say always, but seems like it, but what can you do?! I Know, I have done my share of thorwing out ideas. Its gotten to the point where I think of something and wonder why I even post it or share it with a DEV. Feels like i'm just wasting time and I know not all of my ideas are that bad. LOL (I'm talking over YEARS of expansion after expansion of me sharing ideas with the DEV's and the Players) All you can really do is throw ideas at the Developers and hope they get put in someway. If you are so frustrated to where you are not enjoying EQ anymore, play a different Fantasy based MMO RPG. There really is like 1000 of them. Heck play a Different type of Video game all together. I can almost guarantee you a thread will be ignored by the Developers if you turn it into an Us vs Them thing. I have a feeling they get more annoyed at that then sharing ideas.
