Druid DoTs taking a hit in new patch

Discussion in 'Priests' started by Raeff the Druid, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. Raeff the Druid Lorekeeper

    Hey everyone, Druids and Shaman DoTs are getting nerfed in the new patch on Test. We really need the community to protest these changes. This is simply ridiculous, as druid mana regen and recovery is so low (and slow) that we can't cast these DoTs with real freedom. And, they don't make a hoot of difference if mobs are not root/snareable OR if mobs summon.

    We are still, most often, dead in those cases.

    Please post and create some feedback to help these DEVS see that light. Just as it was getting fun to play these classes again, we get nerfed.

    We need to speak up - otherwise we're right back to where we have been these past 10 years - a forgotten and ignored class!
  2. S33k3r Augur

    My main is a druid and at 105 I have no issue with the changes they made in test.

    Our magic Dot costs more mana but still does the same damage.
    Horde of Aculeids Rk. III:
    - Mana Cost changed from '9315' to '12161'

    Our Chill costs more mana and does less damage, it's still an upgrade compared to the pre-DoT upgrade days so I have no issue with this.

    Chill of the Copsetender Rk. III:
    - Mana Cost changed from '12612' to '14522'
    - Slot 1 changed from 'Decrease Current Hit Points by 7031 per tick' to 'Decrease Current Hit Points by 5939 per tick'
    - Description changed from 'Curses your target with a great chill, dealing 7031 damage every six seconds for 1m 36s (16 Ticks). If this effect lasts its full duration, a more damaging frost will form on the target.' to 'Curses your target with a great chill, dealing 5939 damage every six seconds for 1m 36s (16 Ticks). If this effect lasts its full duration, a more damaging frost will form on the target.'

    Frost of the Copsetender III:
    - Slot 1 changed from 'Decrease Current Hit Points by 23402 per tick' to 'Decrease Current Hit Points by 16134 per tick'
    - Description changed from 'Curses your target with frost, dealing 23402 damage every six seconds for 24s (4 Ticks).' to 'Curses your target with frost, dealing 16134 damage every six seconds for 24s (4 Ticks).'
  3. Raeff the Druid Lorekeeper


    Sounds like a Troll to me. While I do not suggest that I am the greatest druid that ever played the game, I have reasonable experience and a lot of years on the class. 2/3rds of my 16.2 K AA are earned, not inherited. I can tell you that, even as they are currently (before this test patch), these DoTs eat up our mana very quickly. Far too quickly for us to be considered OP. Even if we could endlessly cast these DoTs, there are plenty of other classes that can do the same or better. And, without fear of mobs which summon or mobs which are immune to root/snare. It simply makes no sense to nerf these DoTs at all, and even less sense to make them less efficient. I will have to do some comparison of the old efficiencies and new efficiencies - but I am not actually sure they are better. Yes, we don't have to cast 9 DoTs to get staking done, but other than that, they may not actually be more mana efficient, or at least not by much. My recollection suggests that Horde used to crit for 20 K or more, now it crits for 100 K or slightly more. That is a five-fold increase. Sure - very nice, but the mana cost will be aboiut 5 times what it used to cost also. Not really seeing how this improves the state of the Druid - perhaps slightly, but not by much.

    Even as they were, pre-Test patch nerf, Druid's needed more love to help keep us in balance with Mages, SK's, Shaman, Zerkers, etc...

    This is not a wise or needed nerf. And, you Mr. SeeKer, are some kind of troll to suggest it.

    I doubt you play a druid.......
  4. DruidCT Augur

    I agree that a nerf is not needed. Our lack of good mana recovery options means if we use our current DoTs heavily we drain REALLY fast. I won't even talk about the massive agro these dots are generating now especially with multiple running.
  5. Raeff the Druid Lorekeeper

    I have done more research on this, and the findings prove my point. Before any of the DoT changes, Horde of the Aculeids RK 2 cost 1293 mana to cast and did 1343.5 base damage per tic (1183 - 1504 range). Since it lasts for 54 seconds (9 tics), before any focus extensions (and excluding AA that help with DoT damage), that equates to 12,091.5 damage. That equates to a damage/mana ratio of 9.35. Piss poor, right?

    The new Horde of Aculeids Rk 2 (before the impending nerf on Test) cost 8925 mana to cast, and will do 12125 damage per tic - making a total of 109,125 damage across 54 seconds. That equates to a dmg/mana ratio of 12.22. This change was welcomed and made druids modestly better. This for a class that is universally scoffed at in regards damage, and value to group. (And keep in mind that this was only one of our DoTs - not all received the equivalent boosts. Moreover, such DoTs still take between 1 second and 3 seconds to cast AND one of them has an 18 second recast timer).

    Now the new nerf makes a modest gain, nominal at best - perhaps not even worth it. On Test, the Rk 2 Horde costs 11, 653 mana to cast! Yikes! And the base damage stays the same. Ridiculous! Now the damage to mana ration is 9.37 or so. This is only .02 more efficient than the original spell - which put Druids in the laughable range in regards damage.

    Sure, we can now kill a few mobs faster than we could before - but only a few, and again, ONLY if they are not snare/root immune. But this east our mana so quickly that it makes no sense to even use it outside a few rare instances. Our ability to molo, which was made nominally possible by the recent changes is now being nerfed - after just a few weeks. Crazy!

    And, of course, they cut the damage of Chill of the Copsetender by 25%. Geez!

    Fine, lower the damage on our new DoTs by 25%. But increase efficiency their by 45%, or more. And consider making at least one of the lines an instant cast. That way we can weave these into group play (likely only a few because they still won't be cheap), and then we can still snare/root molo, even if a little slower.

    Frankly, even these concession are a slap in the face for a class that is under played and under-supported.

    I have to wonder why the DEVS have it in for the druid class. We pay our money like everyone else.

    I'm imploring you. Don't do this.
  6. S33k3r Augur

    All I did was point out that the changes affected two of our DoTs and i personally had no issue with that. Somehow that makes me a troll and disqualifies me from having played a Druid. :confused:

    I'm choosing to look on the positive side unlike Shaman we will still have 4 other DoT lines that remain untouched. Now if they planned to change NFW I would be seriously annoyed as I use that spell all the time.

    The changes to DoTs have made me change how I play my Druid (& Shaman) :-
    • Both are now equipped with Totemic Mace and Tome of Obulous. Any chance to restore mana & reduce agro is a bonus.
    • Wolf forms are blocked so I can use a mount and Black/White wolf.
    • I cast Nurturing Growth every 5 mins. It's not canni but it is 15k mana.
    • Veil of the Underbrush is nearly always grayed out as I use it a lot.
    • I carry a stack of Planar Overdose, 79% chance of a FD every 3 mins can be a lifesaver.
    • I keep a much more careful eye out for Gift of Mana procs.

    Quick question Raeff, you mentioned Horde did damage in the (1183 - 1504 range), I wanted to compare the rk.3 spells can could not see a range in the spell data. Where did you get the old damage info ?
  7. Sindaiann Augur

    Use a spell parser S33k3r

    And druids biggest damage dot wasn't touched. Live to test its still the same, you know the one that "can" crit for 5mil a tick (requires support)

    As for the changes to decrease of dmg and increase in mana in both the shaman dots first, and now the druid stuff.....I honestly just see this as a deterrent for use on raids. Necros had major issues keeping their weaves on raid bosses after the shm/druid dot increases, which stagnated the one thing that necros have to do, and that is DPS.

    If you look at it, it took both classes (dru/shm) each from stacking 2-6 dots each, back down to really 1 dot worth using on raids, if anything. Thus creating the necessary debuff slots needed to not cannibalize necro dps, unless of course you don't have but one necro and then for your guild, this just sucks anyway you slice it.

    LIVE 02/15
    [43927/5602] Nature's Fiery Wrath Rk. III
    Classes: DRU/105
    Skill: Evocation
    Mana: 15572
    Target: Single
    Range: 200'
    Resist: Fire -10
    Stacking: Nature's Blazing Wrath 21
    Focusable: Yes
    Trigger Spell DS: Yes
    Reflectable: Yes
    Casting: 3s, Recast: 18s, Timer: 9, Rest: 1.5s
    Duration: 18s (3 ticks), Dispelable: Yes
    1: Decrease Current HP by 16729
    2: Decrease Current HP by 32011 per tick
    Text: A scorching wave of heat engulfs you.
    Engulfs your target in a blazing wave of heat, causing #1 damage initially and #2 damage every six seconds for %z.


    TEST 03/08

    [43927/5602] Nature's Fiery Wrath Rk. III
    Classes: DRU/105
    Skill: Evocation
    Mana: 15572
    Target: Single
    Range: 200'
    Resist: Fire -10
    Stacking: Nature's Blazing Wrath 21
    Focusable: Yes
    Trigger Spell DS: Yes
    Reflectable: Yes
    Casting: 3s, Recast: 18s, Timer: 9, Rest: 1.5s
    Duration: 18s (3 ticks), Dispelable: Yes
    1: Decrease Current HP by 16729
    2: Decrease Current HP by 32011 per tick
    Text: A scorching wave of heat engulfs you.
    Engulfs your target in a blazing wave of heat, causing #1 damage initially and #2 damage every six seconds for %z.
  8. S33k3r Augur


    ???

    That's why it's my favorite spell and I always try to drag a chanter around with me.
  9. RangerGuy Elder


    That verifies what I have seen at times. Regardless of what other changes they make even supported that should not be possible for priests. They won't be giving necros even 32k base dots I don't think but even with that much base necromancers won't be doing 5 million damage ticks. Druids should not have the highest tic potential in the game just because of it being nuke-dot and chromatic haze.
    noclue likes this.
  10. Raeff the Druid Lorekeeper

    Seeker's post about the damage of NFW is misleading. It would take a rare set of circumstances for NSF to hit 5 million per tic. Frankly, I would have to see the logs, because I don't think it is possible. My druid has purchased every DoT AA there is to buy, is geared with EoK tier 1 and some tier 2 Group gear, and has never seen a tic above 567K from NFW. And that was with chanter in group, haze going, and some 10 minute recast DoT boosting AA's active. I am fairly certain that even the best gear in the world won't bring that tic to 5 million, otherwise known as 100 times more than the best I have ever seen.

    That's why I labelled his response a Troll. Unsubstantiated with data, his post seems designed to mislead and obfuscate the truth - which is that Druids have been far behind for a long time, need their current positive changes to remain in tact, and, in fact, need further positive additions to their arsenal, dps, damage mitigation, or tool set when summoned in order to be viable.

    In regards your post, RangerGuy, it is simply NOT informed by EQ history. Up through level 60 (and expansions that allowed levels past that) Druids were always No. 2 in terms of DoTs, behind Necros but in front of Shaman. The reasons druids have disappeared from the game is, in part, due to the relegation of druids to 3rd - and a very very distant 3rd - in terms of DoT damage, AND the fact that Druid DoTs have never been changed to instant cast or consolidated so that we can throw more than one DoT with one cast. Necros and Shaman have those options. Given slow cast times, and the speed of the current game, even our current DoTs pale in comparison to other dps.

    Of course, I have no wish or need to see Druids become tops in the parse (and they do not and will not even with our DoTs left as per currently on LIVE) but there is no reason to have them so far behind other dps. Moreover, with few tools to survive non-root/non-snare mobs or highly social mobs, Druids have been virtually unable to molo for some time - at least certainly not in current content.

    This is simply untenable.

    Restore the druid class to some degree of utility. Just because SEEKER doesn't use the DoTs that are being nerfed, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't.

    And no amount of uninformed complaining from other classes should create more nerfs for an underserved class.
  11. Ghubuk Augur

    I thought that Shaman were number 2 in dots and druids leaned more towards nukes.
  12. Raeff the Druid Lorekeeper



    Since level 60, it started to move in that direction, as our DoTs were nerfed more and more across time (in comparison to Necro and Shaman DoTs). But for those of us who played 16 years ago or more, the central aspect of druid game play was root/rotting. We used to have the best snare and root in the game.

    When not root/rotting, we would charm kite, or simply quad kite. Given how the dps of those spells has declined in relation to mob health AND given that current content rarely allows the space for such to occur, we rarely do this anymore.

    And, those who point to charm as a druid skill have no idea of the current state of things. Our charm is completely broken - a waste of time and effort since the mobs break charm so often we spend more time charming and re-charming, and very little time dpsing. A complete waste of time.

    Sure, we can do these things in content that is 4 releases old. But, virtually every other classes can still kill more mobs faster in those zones, with lesser risk, than can druids.
  13. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    With all due respect, citing "it was this way at level 60" isn't really a good argument in this case. It's an 18yo game and too much has changed, especially now that we get micro expansions, class lines blurring, mass ability farm outs, mercs, and the population dwindles.

    Personally I wish they'd include a token "kite zone" each expansion for alternate methods of exping; I fear kited back in the day and it was fun, but citing that old and mostly retired play style wouldn't really be a good argument for say, sks needing to do more dps than dps-classes, today. (Not saying we do, just an analogy....be gone with you, Xanblade!)
    IblisTheMage likes this.
  14. S33k3r Augur

    To get 2 large ticks from NFW you need to :-
    Cast Twincast, Destructive Vortex (Intensity of the Resolute and Glyph if available)
    Cast NFW
    Enchanter casts Chromatic Haze
    Cast some additional DoTs as you want to avoid using a haze charge with a crit Nuke.

    In the following I did not use intensity/glyph, when haze was active I used our dicho to save the 2 haze charges for NFW.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:44 2017] You feel strengthened by magic.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:48 2017] You begin casting Sunflash Rk. III.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:48 2017] Overseer Vakov's body is encased in the scorching heat of the sun.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:48 2017] You twincast Sunflash Rk. III.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:48 2017] Overseer Vakov's body is encased in the scorching heat of the sun.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:50 2017] Your Irae Faycite Shard: Nature's Fiery Wrath feels alive with power.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:50 2017] Overseer Vakov has taken 3382640 damage from your Nature's Fiery Wrath Rk. III.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:50 2017] Your Irae Faycite Shard: Sunflash feels alive with power.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:50 2017] Overseer Vakov has taken 52964 damage from your Sunflash Rk. III.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:51 2017] Overseer Vakov staggers.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:52 2017] You begin casting Dichotomic Winds.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:52 2017] Overseer Vakov's skin freezes.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:53 2017] You have been granted a gracious gift of mana 96 to 105!
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:54 2017] You deliver a critical blast! (411516)
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:54 2017] Overseer Vakov is blasted by a northern wind.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:54 2017] You twincast Dichotomic Winds.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:54 2017] You deliver a critical blast! (411516)
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:54 2017] Overseer Vakov is blasted by a northern wind.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:56 2017] The magic fades.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:56 2017] Your Irae Faycite Shard: Nature's Fiery Wrath feels alive with power.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:56 2017] Overseer Vakov has taken 3695020 damage from your Nature's Fiery Wrath Rk. III.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:56 2017] Your Irae Faycite Shard: Sunflash feels alive with power.
    [Sun Mar 05 09:44:56 2017] Overseer Vakov has taken 318344 damage from your Sunflash Rk. III.

    The following shows how NFW used 1 charge but I mistimed a nuke which stole the 2nd charge by Crit'ing.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:53 2017] You begin casting Anabatic Roar Rk. III.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:53 2017] You can use the ability Fire Storm again in 0 minute(s) 3 seconds.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:53 2017] High Bokon Boromas is slashed by a phantom assailant.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:53 2017] You feel strengthened by magic.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:53 2017] High Bokon Boromas's eyes go wild with frenzied anger.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:53 2017] Your Irae Faycite Shard: Nature's Fiery Wrath feels alive with power.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:53 2017] High Bokon Boromas has taken 5980846 damage from your Nature's Fiery Wrath Rk. III.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:53 2017] Your Irae Faycite Shard: Horde of Aculeids feels alive with power.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:53 2017] High Bokon Boromas has taken 348884 damage from your Horde of Aculeids Rk. III.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:53 2017] Your Irae Faycite Shard: Sunflash feels alive with power.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:53 2017] High Bokon Boromas has taken 355952 damage from your Sunflash Rk. III.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:53 2017] High Bokon Boromas shouts, 'More bones to the pile... More piles of bones rise to my command!'
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:54 2017] Your magic resonates with Evoker's Synergy.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:54 2017] Your magic resonates with Evoker's Synergy.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:54 2017] You regain your concentration and continue your casting.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:54 2017] The magic fades.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:54 2017] Your Irae Faycite Shard: Anabatic Roar feels alive with power.
    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:54 2017] You deliver a critical blast! (803148)
    Sindaiann likes this.
  15. RangerGuy Elder


    You guys can nuke pretty effectively lets not pretend otherwise. You now can mix and match your dots and nukes as needed in addition to healing, debuffing and CC. There just is no reason as s33 shows above that you also retain the potential to drop that much damage in one tic.
  16. Brohg Augur


    Complete nonsense. Shaman dots hit harder and last longer at every level, especially historically. I don't know any good druids who dotted besides with their epic+bracer, after getting their quadding spells.

    Druids uniquely among dot classes have fast cast dots, Sun dot and Swarm since level 78. Both Nec & Shm have stayed 3.0sec.

    I think that you would be a better druid, with broader knowledge of the game, if you'd been participating in this community before the past month? Like, there are a ton of lifers out here, you're not going to get away with wildly incorrect claims about classic EQ.
    Kunon, IblisTheMage, Sheex and 3 others like this.
  17. IblisTheMage Augur

    Would kite killing be fast enough to be attractive?
  18. Raeff the Druid Lorekeeper



    First off, I retract my statement that Shaman and Necro DoTs have faster casts. But to be clear, eqresource lists many Necro and Shaman DoTs that are 1.5 second casts - so yours have not all remained at 3 second casts as you have said. I guess I am not the only one who needs a "broader knowledge of the game." (Thanks for that, by the way! Much appreciated!)

    To be clear, several Druid DoTs remain at 3 second casts - even with AA reductions these are slower than some SH and N DoTs.

    I also notice that Necro Dicho is instant cast. Druid Dicho (which is a DD is a 4 second cast!). Seems inequitable.

    And it does remain true that BSTs have instant cast DoTs, and I continue to find that a reasonable reason to suggest more Druid Dots should be faster casting. The argument that "we are melee" simply doesn't mean Druids (or other classes) should be saddled with slower casting spells. I'd be happy to see Shaman and Necro DoTs be instant also - or at least some of ALL of our DoTs. Especially when our efficiency is no better than the BST DoTs - as shown in my analysis of the changes on Test - this seems not unreasonable.

    I can tell you that I was root/rotting alongside Shaman and Necros for many years, and seemed to be entirely able to hold my own, until SOE changed the class to be more nuke centric, which was an unwelcome change. And since then, it has consistently seemed that Necros and Shaman could unload their DoTs more quickly than me. However that may be, damage relative to mob health became paltry across time. Before the recent changes on LIVE it would take me over 5 minutes - perhaps more - to molo root/rot one mob in LC with DoTs. This is with EoK gear and maxx DoT AAs. Unreasonable in the extreme.

    Additionally, I remain confounded by the fact that our debuffs are separate from our DPS spells. I see that many - perhaps not all classes - can get multiple effects out of one cast.....I think our debuffs should be that way. But, they are not - I have to cast 5 spells to get the rough equivalent of a shaman slow spell. We lose a great deal of dps (time) to utilize these debuffs spells....to minimal effect in today's fast-killing groups, and tricky (and of dubious value) when molo root/rotting.

    But, most of all, I find it confounding and remarkable that the community here is so nasty in regards my efforts to create some energy to support druid renewal. I happily acknowledge that I do not know it all, and that I have a great deal to learn. But to suggest that I am grossly uninformed is simply mean spirited, and, factually, wrong.

    My assertions are all part and parcel of a thread where my main intent is to remind others that Druids have been in a bad place for a long time. Thus, the first salvo in the defense - fight like heck to make sure the recent modest gains don't get taken away. I don't see that as unreasonable at all.

    Can you really argue that my assertion is false? Druids ARE far behind other classes in most facets of the game - simply look at the rhetoric in general chat regarding druids. The is, in fact, readily acknowledged in every guild and general chat I have experienced, and has been so for years.

    The fact that you so adamantly oppose my efforts to support the small gains we have made recently is remarkable and, frankly, dismaying.

    I have been reading this forum since they came into existence. Have been playing since 2000.

    However, clearly I am not one of your "good druids." Thus, good riddance!

    I, like most others who played my class, will leave you to your superior and high-minded demeanor, and will take my concerns elsewhere.
  19. Skvoid Elder

    [Sun Mar 05 19:32:53 2017] High Bokon Boromas has taken 5980846 damage from your Nature's Fiery Wrath Rk. III.

    Druid DPS is pretty good at the moment and some high burst potential too, not sure I would be posting those numbers if I didn't want the devs to nerf druids though, as we saw from shaman changes I don't think they actually test the changes on the classes in game, if they did 5 minutes of testing would have let them know shaman dots were going to OP as heck.
    Sindaiann likes this.
  20. Raeff the Druid Lorekeeper



    With all due respect, perhaps you would fight harder for an antiquated play style if you didn't have new play skill-sets that allow you to pull 3 or 4 (and oftentimes more) mobs in current content and have a fair chance at surviving and gaining experience and loot?

    If the role of Druids is to be a nuker, then give us some mitigation and survival skills other than (old play style) root and snare. (Of course, the DD play style breaks root anyway). And, so it doesn't take us 5 minutes or more to kill one mob (which we can't really survive anyway because DD breaks root), or use 30% of our mana to do a measly 20% of the dps parse on that one mob, increase our DD significantly. I don't see anyone supporting that, do you? Especially given that the community here is up in arms about a DOT increase which makes us relevant and middling at best.

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