Druid’s ability to recoup mana

Discussion in 'Priests' started by Jack, Dec 29, 2022.

  1. Tucoh Augur

    Cicelee explaining to necros why they should cast Mind Atrophy


    It simply isn't worth the time + spell slot to use regularly. Necros can do too much with that spell slot and time and too many classes aren't burdened with mana conservation issues for it to be worth it. It doesn't help bards, btw.

    I imagine in some cases a necro who is partial to utility spells or is attached to a mana-starved player in the group might feel a need to use it. If you drag your druid wife into EQ you kinda sign on to be a mana dumper as they start dropping DoTs as fast as their little druidic fingers can cast.

    Going back to an earlier thread in this conversation, I kind of wish that EQ was balanced such that it was worth casting. Such that in your previous example of a typical caster group most of the classes would make use of the mana in most raid encounters. Mana conservation opens up a lot of the game that is kind of missing right now for many players.
  2. Allayna Augur

    The laughable thing about this whole de-railing of this thread... is that you could literally give Mind Atrophy to druids, make it an AA cast, once a min, allowing druids to combine the "new" ability with the bear....

    And it would still be less mana return than Canni V.

    And that's just comparing to Canni V the AA, not the spell version or use of spiritual channeling.

    I think the argument that druids are a priest and so don't deserve a boost in mana returning abilities is dead, when you objectively evaluate the shaman class as a comparison.
    Sabreinah and VerranaFV like this.
  3. Tucoh Augur

    It'd be interesting to look at cannibalize as a percentage of a shaman's total mana regen over the last ~24 years. Cannibalize was always a huge part of the shaman's identity, but back in the days of cannidancing it was never a "Oh looks like I dumped my entire mana pool, better head to the fire hydrant and get a refill" level ability. The.... 4600 mana/tick? it gives so profoundly eclipses everything else a shaman gets for mana regen, I'd be interested to know how that's evolved over time.

    Target: Self
    1: Decrease Current HP by 210000
    2: Increase Current Mana by 92000
    Cannibalization XXI, when activated, consumes 210000 health to restore 92000 mana.

    It's gotten so intense that I don't even use it when I go f2p and start equipping my trash mixup of f2p gear.
  4. Allayna Augur

    You’re trying to play up the deadliness of the ability *IF* you go F2P and *IF* you don’t have the non-prestige gear?

    Canni X - CoTF era, returns 21,800 mana, which is around what the druid bear returns today. *IF* you ignore the difference in the reuse on the abilities.
  5. Tucoh Augur

    No, I'm agreeing with you. You'll enjoy life more if you stop willfully misinterpreting what people say so you can have e-arguments with them.
  6. Rolaque Ancient

    It's all quite interesting, but irrelevant to me since I'm often the druid in a necro group. If I happen to die, and I say 'need mana,' I get it. Not FoM but a significant amount that I can continue to heal the group and do my dps.
    All in all, this is just crap about druids going oom all the time. But that's just my opinion built up over years and years of play.
  7. Wulfhere Augur

    Suggestions from this thread, I think Devs should consider 4 Druid specific improvements to bring mana recovery up to par.

    1. New spells Growing Exuberance II, III, IV (pet owner) that have increasing mana values and attach to appropriate bear pets of Growth line for them to cast.

    2. _____ Replenishment line (pet owner), greatly ramp up mana values cast by bear pets of Growth line when they unsummon self.

    3. Spirit of Great Wolf AA (self only), greatly ramp up slot 13 mana regen values.

    4. Mask of the _____ line (self only), greatly ramp up slot 3 mana regen values.

    Keeping it simple, none of the mechanics of the spells need to change, just appropriately increased mana returns.
    Spacemonkey555, Silvena and Jack like this.
  8. talayen New Member

    This thread is an interesting one - I'm certainly grateful it's being discussed thoroughly, because hopefully that brings some dev attention.

    I agree that druid mana recovery is a problem, and has been for some time. I also agree with some of the suggestions for ability changes that have been posted. I think our ability to sustain our mana pool (particularly in a raid setting) is massively dependent on things we cannot entirely control. Does the guild have enough bards, are beastlords correctly/consistently distributing Paragon, are clerics receptive/responsive to QP requests. I do all the tricks I can to keep my mana up (splinter of potency, bixie aug, prayer shawl, bear every 5m, mod rod clicks, rod of dark rites, perma wolf rotation) and still have constant mana issues on nearly every event.

    As a raiding druid in current live EQ, our best contribution to the raid is as DPS. Sure, we heal/cure caster groups and provide some ADPS with group wolf, aura, and debuffs, but the vast majority of our time (and mana) should be used for DPS. The reality is that as a druid, if you only focus on healing you're wasting a raid slot.

    To that end, our mana recovery should be more in line with what our primary role is and what spells are most heavily used. Like others, I'm not asking for infinite mana, or even mana return equal to Canni or Monster Summoning, but just something more on par with the mana requirements of a DPS role on the raid events we see in modern EQ.
    Sabreinah, Metanis, VerranaFV and 2 others like this.
  9. VerranaFV Journeyman

    I am happy for those that have found a way to sustain more easily, however, most of us do not have a Necro available for supplementing our mana recovery. The requirement of X class in Y group for Z outcome is not logical in a game like EQ; you can't guarantee group makeup 100% of the time, so you can't build or design a class mechanic based on that criterion alone.

    I feel like the bottom line is that there's a disconnect with Druids from MOST other classes when it comes to their sustainability and mana situation. If you are mainly healing, then this may not be as crippling because of the MUCH lower costs of heal spells vs. DoTs. However, adding just 1-2 DoTs in your lineup can cause major issues.

    Several viable suggestions have been put forth, with my favorite being a revamp to the "Mask" line to be more in-line with current mana expenditure since this is a self-reliant option. Another idea is to add some substantial mana recovery to shared wolf AA lines, which could also benefit the group as a whole. As an alternative it even wouldn't be such a bad idea to simply lower the mana costs of ridiculously mana-expensive lines, such as the Nature's X Wrath DoTs.

    Like others I am happy this is being discussed so thoroughly as well, with hopes it can be addressed for some better resources available to Druids in the future.
    Metanis, Spacemonkey555, Jack and 2 others like this.
  10. Szilent Augur

    well, the discussion hit upon a mana recovery tool that isn't frequently deployed by most necros. If you could guarantee a group make up, Necro would be pick, like, at least third maybe fourth/fifth.

    yeahhhh, problem is mana costs pretty much don't just "go down" for free. If the costs are more reasonable, like wizards' top damage spell base cost is just 12719 compared to druids' at 27843, then… you also don't get how much damage druids get from that spell. Wizards get 5M on a Lucky Critical instead of 22M from that spell cast (and then the 22M can go bonkers with brd+enc, but that's beyond the scope of this conversation).

    Hypothetically, even if someone decides druids get to keep the mana:damage ratio and "just" lowers both together, the spell and the class gets sooo much weaker. Because you can't "just" cast the spell more to get your dps back; you're limited by game ticks that dots need to run and by spell cast times, etc.

    The dots are spendy, sure, but druids aren't not getting their mana's worth from them. To go with that mana cost, the spells are very powerful.
    Sabreinah likes this.
  11. Allayna Augur

    I actually agree, the cost of the spells are in line with the *potential* damage (enchanter/bard for adps) that they can do. The ability to recoup that mana once out, whether that is from an extended fight, a death, the mechanics (mana drains, multiple multibillion hp adds to dot)... is what needs to be looked at. The bear just isn't anywhere close to cutting it.
    Sabreinah, VerranaFV and Jack like this.
  12. Cadira Augur

    I just started alt raiding on a druid last weekend. Had an enchanter and some wizzies and mage most the time.

    I got this hoe to 120, most of her aas, pretty basic hero aas, more or less full group gear, ok type 5s and 7s but not fantastic.

    I'm indiscriminately casting as many dots as I can on as many mobs as possible in nos t1 events. I'm terrible about using mod rods and probably on avg use half as many clicks as I can. I occasionally ask for one (1) qp from a friend if I'm desperate. I "never" use the mana bear (probably should work it in but couldn't find a good spot for it in my line up). We prob get 2 or 3 paragons per raid on avg.

    ....and I always have mana to spare. Ran out on oubliette due to longer than usual fight time and no chanter that raid. It's certainly possible that I'm "not good" but can't imagine what she'll look like when she's actually raid geared and has better natural mana Regen and constant enchanter love.

    I think druids need an "after death" mana return option, though. Could certainly suffice as an upgrade to the current bear and be more in line with what other classes get. But I just don't see the arguments that people are just running out of mana 90% of the time in normal circumstances that don't involve death, etc.
  13. Allayna Augur

    You're not dotting enough bro. You know Liljit can hold it down and top parses and still has mana issues, using all the tricks, with years of experience.
  14. TsiawdMS I Identify as a Melee Ranger

    If you're not oom or super close to it (barring getting qp on cool down) on events 10+ minutes you are simply not getting your best dots on every target. Finishing an event with mana to me is leaving dps on the table somewhere. Fishing for gift of mana procs sub 15% so you can keep at least natures/sunpyre on main target.

    I mean sure I could finish events with mana and do 50% less dps than the highest druid and spam clotavida on the main tank. But that's not really the meta for druids in todays raid environment.
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  15. Cadira Augur

    Maybe, but dotting is about all I'm doing :p to be fair, I'm only using the main three. Thinking about throwing a chill in there soon
  16. Allayna Augur

    Definitely throw chill. Especially as we head into T2 with multiple billion hp trash adds.
    Cadira likes this.
  17. Wulfhere Augur

    The mana bear pet spell is design to be memorized, cast, then de-memmed. I fit it into a debuff gem like Skin To ___, Moonbeam, Sunray, Breath, or Frost, ... temporarily.

    For me this is spell gem 7 and a hot button macro to mem Mana Bear with just that single gem. Optionally a /pause 52 (before mem) and /cast 7 for convenience too, if not hectic. After you cast bear, then press the hot button for your in-use spells to get gem 7 back.

    Alternatively can now use /memspellslot <slot> <spell> to conserve a spell set. E.g. mine is:

    #/pause 52
    /memspellslot 7 Nourishing Growth
    #/cast 7

    ps: this reminds me to get the level 111 or 116 spell.
    Cadira likes this.
  18. Rolaque Ancient

    Interesting, but my raiding environment is not yours. If I'm not going oom on NoS raids, but I'm still using all my 'best dots', and we're still routinely farming them, then all is well.
  19. Clarisa Augur

    The fact that a single priest class has a significantly better way of restoring mana than the other two priest classes when spell design is based on mana cost is an issue in and of itself. The only way such an ability could be justified -- through balanced game design, at least -- is if the class needed it in order to sustain the healing or damage they were designed to do.

    None of the priest classes are currently designed that way, with the mana costs of healing and damage spells (mostly) in line with the amount of healing and damage they do. I would ask a game designer then, why are the ways in which the priest classes restore their mana so different? It is not the same as saying a cleric has a divine resurrection ability because they are clerics and just "better" at it through class design -- unlike resurrections, mana costs and usage are a fundamental part of spell design. The self-restoration of mana should, then, be balanced.

    Currently, that is not the case. You have a single priest class able to restore mana by consuming their health (which is not a fair trade seeing as health is more easily replenished through outside sources than mana is) every couple of minutes. The others are limited to abilities that restore mana far less frequently or are forced to choose to help others recover their mana while giving up their own self-restoration.

    This results in one priest class pretty much never having to worry about mana costs or usage regardless of the situation (to the point that giving them a divine resurrection with full mana is considered a "waste") while the other two do have to worry about mana costs and usage depending on the situation. The unbalanced nature of the priest classes in general exacerbates the issue, as you have (arguably) the most balanced priest class (in terms of damage and healing) possessing the "endless mana" ability.

    Though I am not suggesting that every class be provided with an ability to restore their mana by consuming their health, I am suggesting that all priest classes be provided with an ability that allows them to restore a reasonable amount of mana every few minutes -- far more often than the once-an-event abilities some priests have currently allow. It will in no way fix some of the balance problems that exist in the game but it will do a lot to restore balance in the sense that all priests will have the mana to do *something* other than beg for mana restoration while a few priests chew on themselves and are instantly back in the fight.
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  20. Lluianae Elder

    It's a much different beast for Clerics than it is for Druids. Sure, we don't have the mana recovery of a Shaman, but outside of undead DoTs and burning through Renewals for no reason, our mana expenditure is nowhere near prohibitive, to the point where no Cleric in contemporary EQ should have mana issues, and unlike Druids, we have VP/QP where they have nothing. We can run effectively on fumes. The same cannot be said for Druids. I could only dream of a way to convert my excess mana into more damage for a group and raid - and that's with a high DPS GCD uptime.

    Now if we're talking about an older era of EQ, then yes you can argue about Cleric mana hurting more. Things changed considerably over the years. But it's remiss to pair us in the same boat as Druids when it's far from being the case.

    Addendum: I'm still exclusively QPing our Druid as we grind out exp for the NoS cloak, and he's still the worst off in mana over time with all the mana recovery sources our group has to offer.
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