Please follow along before jumping down my throat. OK? It used to be that the "penalty" for having a lower DPS raid force, was that events were more of a struggle and a time sink - but eventually beatable so long as you followed the emotes and did what you were supposed to do correctly. (Yes, one stupid player can wipe you - that's fine) A lower DPS force might clear 1-2 targets a night, while the more elite forces could clear 3-4 targets at least. And we were all (more or less) OK with that. The more "elite" forces with the best makeup and discipline - got more loots and more achievements sooner, and more often. But in the last couple expansions the "DPS checks" have increased and even resorted to totally artificial "fail timers". So now a force that used to be able to "slog through" content more slowly, is discouraged from beating their head into a wall - because the fail is inevitable without a high DPS force. All this serves to do is cause attrition. In the case of CTA, a few have left to join more elite guilds (and that's normal), but those that want to play with old friends (or not play at all) have just left the game or "taken a break". Solution? There is absolutely no harm and no foul, in removing (or nerfing) the DPS checks from events that are one expansion back. By the time a new expansion drops, all the "big boys" (and girls) have made their marks, and the server and game "firsts" and are ready to "blow up" the new content. What happens to old content is not their concern anymore. So I would think in the interest of retention, it would be a good idea to make "last years news" at least "beatable" by the 2nd string guilds and alliances. This in order to maintain the integrity of the depth of the raid game. Remember, many of these "2nd sting" raid forces are made up of older (less twitchy) players, who want to play their original characters with their old friends - or not play at all. Switching guilds, or switching mains, is just not an option for us old farts. IMHO: EQ being so "long in the tooth" as it is - can not afford to alienate the "old guard" while just catering to the elite guilds. Not when it can do both at the same time. And removing the DPS checks and artificial timers out of events from past expansions will help us old farts keep playing with our friends. (and not impact the elite types at all). Win-win. -Rat
Merging servers would give guilds a new population to recruit needed classes to improve the outcome of said raids. Dwindling server populations can make it hard for middle guilds to recruit needed classes. I for one think removing any of those mechanics takes away from the experience for guilds going through it. Officers in those guilds, recruiters and the players need to get more of the needed classes to conquer whatever encounter they are failing at. Alliances used to be an option we used long ago, as well as absorbing smaller guilds.
I totally agree that a server merge is long overdue - and a big contributory factor. But I disagree that adding "fail timers" to recent events is even a real "mechanic" at all. IMHO it's a alteration of classic EQ mechanics in a myopic effort to give the "glass cannon" organizations something to shoot for. I'm OK with that. But I feel leaving them in place after the super-stars pass by, is not a good thing. "Getting more of the needed classes" is harder when your core 40 players are older, and not high DPS classes to begin with. And it's my experience that those (younger) people that play high DPS characters, and excel at it - quickly move on to more elite organizations. We're not going to retain "shooting stars" that are out to "beat EQ". -R
Have to agree. I haven't done anything at all in TBM, because I'm currently burnt out, but TDS had garbage raids, but a decent group game...not good or great, just decent. CotF had interesting raids, but group game was horrible. I enjoyed RoF quite a bit because it was large, with lots to do and I was totally under-geared since I skipped a lot of VoA and HoT so getting up to speed was a bit of a chore. As a result, I had a lot of fun in that expansion though. It really is much too easy to do everything these days and I'm not just talking about missions. Being able to buy pretty much any loot from a vendor also detracted quite a bit from the game, but I can't argue against it for the raid game because the gear grind x52 plus the occasional alts is just an annoyance without it.
Unfortunately TDS raid progression starts off with an event with not one, but two of these artificial timers. There's the overall event timer - and another timer that kicks in when you down the first "pack" of mobs. So for lower DPS guilds - TDS is bottlenecked from the very start. And that = the suck. Eliminating these timers (now that the expansion is "past") would not make this event a sudden "gimme". All the mechanics would still be there, and a "tank and spank" type force would be at risk of running the healers (and casters) OOM before downing the boss. Not to mention that, the longer you take to kill an event, the higher the risk of wiping to mistakes or attrition - as it should be. Before this new "timer thing" - we could adapt our strats (trial and error) to get slow wins. Yes, it was a lot longer win than the glass cannons pull off - but it was still satisfaction. (and fun) And remember - I'm talking slow wins on last years events. During TDS we were slogging our way through COTF, but having fun. TDS (raids one year later) are "unfun" unless you have a glass cannon guild. -R
Hard coded timers are just a plain lazy design decision, period. DPS checks should come in the form of an event that spirals out of control if you take too long but still doable if you can compensate with added skill in other areas, not an artificial timer that just arbitrarily ends the event. IMO, they're not fun even for higher end guilds.
This happens naturally, without any dev intervention. New expansions mean increases in player power via levels, spells, AAs, gear, or other mechanics. Raid DPS should have gone up by 20% to 30% compared to pre-TBM levels, making all those DPS checks that much easier. That's always how EQ has made old content easier, the checkpoints remain the same, but your ability to pass them gets better. I know why you're frustrated about this, EQ hasn't given a crap about low tier guilds in years. TDS ignored you completely. While TBM promised new a CNToV with pof/poh, but gave raids filled with casual unfriendly mechanics. At some point, though, your raid has to accept the fact that having DPS players who know how to play is just as important as having healers, tanks, and CCers. High DPS guilds aren't more fragile, they just have DPS and ADPS who play better. Or maybe being frustrated with the low skill level in pickup raids is the sign that you need to move up to a new raiding scene.
Well yes... It would have gone up could we have gotten any traction in TDS, we would have been in better shape to look at TBM next year - LOL. As it sits, we are farming Hate and Fear with (too slowly) improving attempts at TDS-1 and Vim & Vigor. It's the silly timers that locked lower tier forces out of TDS completely, and the sad part is that the uber guilds made a total joke of those timers anyway. All they had to do was get the mechanics down pat. Accept? Not yet. I accept that hard coded timers only came to the forefront in TDS, and that continuation of this folly will cost them memberships among the older ranks. (People that put playing with old friends ahead of "winning EQ".) This is the first time I remember in EQ that a "semi-casual" but dedicated force could not progress in "last year's content". That's a lose for us - AND for Daybreak. -R
i thought many TBM raids had this.. run past the time limit hits the fan.. some you can muscle through others not so much.
I think this pretty much sums it up.. EQ doesn't have nothing for lower tier guilds.. well take that for whats its worth as many guilds out there have already completed TBM.. After those guilds there really isn't much allure to raiding. PoF and PoHate are total crap holes to raid.. Fear is probably worse than all the other raids in TBM.. I cant say how much i hate Fear. Those 2 zones should be tuned and made easy mode. and removing half or more of the trash in there. T1 (Life and Decay) for the most part are all fairly easy raids.. now that decay was retuned its pretty easy. That being said T2-3 are all easier than Decay..
Hard timers go all the back to Corinav and PoP. They've mostly been hidden behind emotes instead of the "X minutes remaining" lines we're seeing now, though. I like soft enrage timers more for most events, but hard timers on DPS checks make perfect sense from a design point of view. "Your DPS must be this high to ride the roller coaster" doesn't need an escape clause, the whole point of DPS/gear/tanking/CCing checks in raids is to force a raid to meet a minimum requirement in order to get loot and proceed. What's stopping your raid from buying TBM AAs, getting rank 3 Dichos, rank 2 normal spells, and hundreds of heroics from group gear that should replace CoTF raid gear? None of that requires raiding anything. Spell drops were rare, and Dicho upgrades were broken, but I had a decent power increase on day 1 of TBM from buying Dicho rank 1 and new AAs.
By lower tier, I wasn't meaning the guilds that finish an expansion in spots #5-20. I was more talking about the pickup and casual raids that got a huge boon from CNToV. Having a bunch of sub-tier-1 simple tank & spank raids was really great for keeping more people engaged in the game. Keeping those people engaged while increasing interest and accessibility to raiding was good for the health of the game and guilds above and below the ones killing dragons for a bracer. Fear and Hate are so incredibly unfun, even when we don't have to deal with wiping or figuring out mechanics. I can only assume that guilds who have to spend twice as long on trash and can't plow through bosses have an even worse time in there. Fear is some long range gravity effects away from being the list of least fun mechanics in EQ.
Rat, Can you give us an example of a raid, which had a "timer" added to it after it became 1 expansion old ?
Dispel is the one mechanic I'd pick out from PoFear that makes it less fun. But I'm the guy who doesn't like the idea of buffs to begin with, so anything that interacts with them starts at -1.
Arx 1 is stupidly easy even with low dps... you don't even need insanely high raid dps to beat the timer, you just need good CC/tanks that aren't insanely slow on pulling in mobs and locking them down.
Brohg, That being the case. No, I for one do not want any raids "nerfed" what so ever even as they have been doing the past 5 expansions of .. Nerf 1 : 6 months after content is out. Nerf 2: 9 months after contents out. Nerf 3: (Final nerf) 11 months after contents out. I do not think anyone should "get items easier" just because its "older content", If I had my way as a Dev, I'd make even naggy an Vox raid dragons able to 1 round anyone still currently to this day they are a RAID mob an thus should "take an army to defeat this foe" as per their con. Always .. So just be happy I'm not a dev, and have a coke an a smile =)
all you need are competent raiders who do their job listen to strats and show up for raids. Thanks I ll be here all week. People make alot of this stuff way too hard.
With the amount of player written guides on EQ forums and class forums, etc. It's surprising how many people can't simply apply all this knowledge from the best of the best into how to become a better player. The only hardest part is subconciously getting the timing down and realizing oh I can use X ability at this time of event to maximize dps, tanking w/e and also mana management as a caster.
What you really need to do is just look over the parses and find the person who parses the highest in each class, ask them to give you a list of what they are doing..Then you simply make the rest of the classes coordinate with the highest parses person in each class. Also, ADPS is important, making sure they are all receiving the proper support they need is crucial as well. Wanting to have the game changed because people aren't playing their classes right isn't the way route you should be trying to drive right now..You should be trying to change the people within your guild and optimize what they are doing, some might have an issue with it..That's why you provide parses, so they can see what the other disc lineup or spell weave or maybe they just need their burns revamped, w/e it might be, they can see the difference between what they are doing and the highest person of their class is. Good luck.
