DoT Revamp

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Hadesborne, Feb 17, 2019.

  1. a_librarian Augur

    RIP in peace necromancer
  2. Misaligned Augur

    Agreed. Please finish what you started.
  3. Grogak New Member


    Here's another.

  4. EnchFWO Augur

    They did finish.

    Rather Aristo, the spell dev, just decided to quit at it because everyone told him his first attempt was such a complete failure on beta - and he doesn't like that. :rolleyes:

    Most people probably don't even know that he is a dev because he doesn't post on the forums, doesn't respond to PMs, doesn't participate in ANY livestream or panel event and yet he is in charge of one of the most important components of the game.

    I honestly have no clue how this has been allowed to go on for so long at this point.
  5. Fhiele Augur

    I really do like the idea proposed above to do just the fire line and then wait and see how it goes before revamping more lines.

    My SoD Era necromancer used 3-4 fire dots for routine xp mobs, so casting just one would have been a huge timesaver.
  6. Hadesborne Augur

    Please make sure you get your S*** straight before you come on the forums attempting to flame people for grammar errors. If anything, I missed a couple commas, oh boy! Also, just stop with the attempted childish humor. You are just making yourself look bad.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obscurity

    Not entirely true. Most necros, as well as other DoT classes that I have spoken with, have said that they enjoy the changes that were made to the other classes. Did they get it right the first time perfectly? No. Did they fix things to a satisfactory level eventually? Yes. This is all necros want. We want the initial consolidations made. Then the adjustments and fine tuning can be done afterwards and the class will be better off for it in the long run.
  7. EnchFWO Augur

    No, it's completely true - maybe my post wasn't clear because I was referring to the initial beta changes to Necros - not other classes which happened later. That was the catastrophe. The other classes came out pretty good for sure... almost too good because they were retuned 2 - 3 times because they were OP - especially Ench. Like... STUPIDLY OP for Ench. That was a fun few months.

    So no, Necros have never had any remote semblance of what was ideal or a revamp because there was one quick pass and the spell dev quit on it and undid the first round of changes.

    I highly encourage anyone interested in Necro spell revamps to PM the spell dev Aristo on these forums. You may get lucky and he will read it in the once a year obligatory login to the forums.

    PS. Just for emphasis - he is literally one of the worst things to ever happen to EQ. Almost as bad as the itemization dev during... TBS(?) I think it was?
  8. snailish Augur

    Naming a single dev in a negative way with slanderous(?) "proof" seems unproductive to me.

    Should the necro situation be recognized, communicated about and dealt with? Yes.

    Is it a can of worms? Yes.


    I still think the easiest way to not break the class is just leave all the existing spell lines intact for the under 85 game... and put in the revamp lines that don't stack with the old lines and the game 85+. So old (same line stacks) and new dots (modern no stacking) 1-85, new dots 85+. I pick 85 because it's the new newbie level of the live game, and easier to tune up from that point in my view.

    So you can solo the same old way, particularly on the bulk of progression.
    You could solo with the new lines that cost way more (watch out resist/fizzles) but hit like a truck.
    You could blend old fire with new disease and so on.

    In the meantime you raid with the new dot lines, no longer need to spell set swap and no longer have debuff stacking issues.


    Then you figure out what you are going to do about the bursty/twitch gameplay and/or give necro bursty/group gameplay viability.
  9. Zansobar Augur

    That would only be fair if they then took out the revamps to dots to all the other classes for levels under 85 too. Right now the revamped dots for shaman and druids make them insanely high dps classes compared to Necros, which should be the king of dots.

    I think a better solution is just work on the 1-50 spells first and do the consolidation there, since most of the population doesn't play Live anyway, and then work up in levels from there. That way you cover the levels that get played the most, and replayed the most in the game. It's also the easiest part to do since there are so few spells that will actually be changed.

    I never understood why they made this revamp harder than it needed to be. Had they stook to their original plan to basically combine 3 or so level improvements of a single dot line into one spell and them make it so those previous 3 levels or so of that dot no longer stack this would have been done in a matter of weeks. All they had to do was take the total damage per tick of the 3 or so spells and make each successive spell be the damage of the 3 previous ones added together and the mana cost be the sum of the three...instead they started tweaking with the damage/mana ratios and started increasing overall damage of some classes (Beastlords for example) to fit some hidden master plan. This overly complicated this and had they just did the first combination and THEN tweaked classes later this would have been a spreadsheet exercise and be done. Instead they went off on a tangent and here we are with a crappy Necro class compared to classes with dot revamps.
  10. EnchFWO Augur

    When someone drops the ball in such an epic fashion they deserve to be held accountable. I just want people to be aware of who is responsible for the mess. If you look at all of the other main devs and their posts... well... there is no comparison.

    Here- check out the post history:
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?members/aristo.89/
    Taladir likes this.
  11. Arclyte Elder

    Why was every other class's damage ramped up so much? Everything dies so fast
  12. snailish Augur

    Dot revamp is for debuff stacking on live servers. It matters on progression raiding too. They aren't going to ignore the live game with this.

    My suggestion is arguably unfair in that I say let necros have both: old dot lines (until 85) and non-stacking new lines (all levels).

    Dot revamp isn't about class balance really, it is about debuff slots. Class balance is a different huge argument or moot point depending on your perspective.

    Yes, some classes had their damage output over time increased because they get more damage out faster for the mana cost (or at least that is being claimed by some). On long enough encounters a necromancer is as good as they ever were --problem there is that on progression everything is dying so fast, what a necro is good at isn't really needed is what I keep hearing. Not forgetting that a necro has to mem multiple spell sets to "do their best" when other classes can now use a few spell gems for dots and fiddle around with other things.

    --2nd problem is if necromancer's raid role was to be the best long-sustained caster damage (Wizard is more bursty, etc.) then increasing the efficiency of other classes does erode this status. However this is subject to eras and dev vision... not sure that has been made clear to us?

    -If there is a "hidden master plan" I don't mind that if the plan makes sense, though knowing the plan does help at times. Sometimes the answer isn't the direct copy of what was done for other classes either. For example... increasing the mana regen of the lich line across all the early levels would be a great boon to necromancers of all playstyles. Meanwhile the math would simply be an increase in efficiency.
  13. EnchFWO Augur

    I'm sorry but it doesn't seem like you have much comprehension about the current Live game or DOT revamps at all based on this post.
  14. snailish Augur

    It's about debuff slots on live. For necros specifically it gets into spell sets.

    Old post from 2017:


    Old post by Aziuno wasn't universally acclaimed, but it brings up some chewable points.

    Notwithstanding that... either telling us necro revamp isn't happening or when it is would be welcome news.
  15. EnchFWO Augur

    There are almost no events where any competent guild was debuff locking raid mobs on Live because of DOTs or otherwise. So, no, it was not about debuff slots. However, it was because of what you also described though with Necros having to mem/cast 2 - 3 spell sets to be competitive DPS which is just ridiculous.

    And again, if people want information or answers then I suggest they (constructively) reach out to devs/producers either on these forums, twitter, e-mail, or other media. I've had great experiences with all of them (except Aristo who never responds like I said). :)
  16. javiere New Member

    This is just getting ridiculous really - years of waiting, without so much as a "hey guys this is the plan".
  17. menown Augur

    I guess RoI is not a competent guild then. We hit the debuff cap easily with just 3 necros in raid. The second issue you pointed out is also true. The class has become way too complex and unforgiving.

    I played a necro exclusively for raiding. I raided every expansion with the first TLP servers (Sleeper/Combine) up to current content. As the game progressed, more class and raid mechanics were introduced that were unforgiving to necromancers. Examples of this can be seen with more DoT extention AAs/foci, which the class was soon balanced around longer duration DoTs, and raid mechanics such as % based, hp locks, dispels, and more. Couple these things with having to constantly mem spells throughout a raid with AEs and adds possibly hitting you while sitting down.

    I have come to hating my main on raids! I am an officer of the top guild in the game, and am very devoted to my guild, but I detest this class in its current Live content form. I've been watching the patch notes everyday for over 3 years now, waiting for any mention of a class revamp in essence. I've been playing alts and raiding in other guilds to keep my attention to this game.

    I received a response from a Dev on the DoT revamp in February 2019 through a PM. I've been hesitant to post this response, as it was through a PM. But people have been left hanging, just like me, for far too long. Maybe this would help people with making future decisions.

    "This is something that we'd love to tackle, when time allows. We understand that DoT classes that haven't been revamped yet are not in an ideal situation. I'm not sure when or if we'll be able to get to it, as it's a large design project."
    Ryak, snailish and EnchFWO like this.
  18. EnchFWO Augur

    I see what you did there and if you want to spin my words that way then fine - but I would never say ROI was incompetent but at the same time acting like that is the "norm" is also a tad extreme. Anyway, not what the post was about.

    Glad you shared that information though... honestly I figured most people realized this was the case by now. What's unfortunate is that it took a top Necro in the entire game to drag this out of a dev (in private) after a few years.
  19. a_librarian Augur

    *toilet flushing sound*
  20. Bewts Augur

    The simple fix is to have an AA that toggles DoTs into direct damage with a qualifying check to determine if you’re in a raid when you toggle it on and it’ll toggle off when your character leaves a raid.

    It would turn necro / SK only DoTs from a shared line into a single nuke costing the same mana and is for the cumulative damage of the spells from that spell line. The recast of the-now DoT nuke would be equivalent to its base duration. Shaman DoTs also cast by Necros, for example, would be unaffected.

    While I’m sure Necros would cry foul - this fix worked in the bastardized EQ2 for Warlocks to turn their base AE damage spells to single target. This means it’s entirely possible to achieve with DoTs and would help make necromancers the poison, disease, fire and curse nuke kings similar to wizards who own magic, fire, chromatic and cold DD damage sources.

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