Don't Nerf Mearatas (yet)

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by gotwar, Feb 12, 2019.

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  1. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    I can't speak to the expansions that you referenced, because I wasn't playing at the time. But I've been a raider for the last 5 expansions and it seems to me that the flagging requirements in the recent expansions (requiring multiple clears of a tier before gaining access to subsequent tiers) has been a big barrier for guilds that are on the cusp of progressing. If those flagging requirements were removed, more people would be able to see new content and more people might stay interested.

    As it is now, a significant number of players that would like to raid have not seen any new event in over a year, and have been forced to repeat the same 1-2 T1 raids from last year's expansion every week, and then round out their raid days with a few T1/T2 raids from two years ago or earlier.
  2. Sokki Still Won't Buff You!!

    If a guild has been farming T1 for over a year it's not flags that are holding them back. Even if they only beat 1 raid a week it would only take 18 weeks to unlock T2 in RoS or 21 weeks to unlock T2 in TBL. While the flagging is an arbitrary "Road Block" it's probably not what's holding guilds back.
    Slippry likes this.
  3. Whulfgar Augur

    all the raids in RoS the expansion you mentioned in your post above, have been nerfed at least 1x 2x ? As was pointed out above as well if your guild can't get past t1 after this long its not a issue of hard content its an issue of performance.
  4. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    I certainly understand this point of view, and there is no doubt that skill as a guild is a factor. But on a server such as Bristlebane, if you want to raid you only have two options:

    a) Get lucky and join one of the 3 successful raiding guilds, when they have an opening, and be willing to play a class that they want. A lot of us are not playing our first-choice character and had to change mains just to raid.
    b) Join the casual raids (the 4th raiding guild or the server's open raids). Both of these groups have been repeating the exact same few raids that they've been doing for the last two years, and constantly run into flagging issues when trying to attempt new events.

    So basically, I am guessing that greater than 25% of the server's potential raiders eventually give up because they can't ever move on and see new content, specifically due to the grindy nature of the flagging process.

    And then you throw in things like RoS raid gear that you can't wear without first having the EoK raid gear, and that means that it takes twice as long to gear up new recruits to be able to take on harder content. Again, more established guilds that are able to finish all the raids in an expansion before the next one releases don't even notice these effects, but for any weaker guilds and new recruits, it just gets harder and harder and they are falling farther and farther behind.

    The http://www.elitegamerslounge.com/home/progress/index.php indicates that there were 31 guilds that beat T1&T2 EoK raids, but only 25 managed to beat T3. And then, a year later, 29 guilds beat T1 RoS, but only 21 guilds have been able to progress farther than that. And only 20 guilds have made any progress in the newest expansion.

    So my observation is that EQ is suffering from a growing disparity between - ha ha - the upper class (high end raiders) and the middle class (casual raiders). The entry barrier for the middle class is just to high. The overall effect is fewer raiders, and that can't be a good thing.

    You can always claim that you did it first, that you did it the hard way, or whatever else strokes your ego. My suggestion of making older content more accessible to casual players does nothing to hurt current raiders, but has the potential to increase the number of raiders overall.
    IblisTheMage likes this.
  5. Bamboompow Augur

    Yah pretty much. But, lets not forget that EQ represents an extraordinary example of team building that doesn't happen in the real world.

    Top guilds are beacons for top talent volunteers. As in they work for "free" to satisfy their own desire to perform. Pure intrinsic motivation. Sure, they might be paid in DKP or whatever but in reality its all just yanked out of the ether. In the real world, you could not have a full squad of superstars. Extreme ego, astronomical payroll costs, and how to manage all those Type A personalities would be staggering. Even in sports, a draft ranking is supposed to allow a more even distribution of talent. Does it work? Well....

    EQ does not have those kinds of limitations. As a result, those who are ahead stay ahead. The top guilds will always funnel the top players to their rosters so as a result they don't have to be negotiable on the rules. Even then, the rule set only punish those who should not even be there to start with. The raid forces that always perform well don't have loot or flag dilution by having to maintain a 150+ person roster to attempt to fill a 54 person raid. So you can gear up fully and flag quickly. Those rank 15 or 20 or whatever below guilds that might not even be considered "raid guilds" in the calculus still have to acknowledge the person who can make raid once a week or less still has a right to loot and such. Even if their lack of practice make them less than an adept raider. Still, they show up and enjoy themselves when they can.

    "Git Gud" is a nice catch phrase, but it doesn't fix what screws most players of this game: Time management. That is not even a negative connotation. EQ is still a leisure time activity and for many, that is not always easy to come by. Many of us find more enjoyment in a bad EQ day than a OK day in the real world but in many cases that given day IRL does not yield any time left over for leisure.
  6. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    In addition to significantly increasing the flags rewarded for each event, another way to encourage newer/less experienced raiders would be to increase (double or more) the amount of currency that is awarded. The gearing prospects for a new or casual raider are somewhat discouraging.

    If we consider the raiding population over the life cycle of an expansion, I can understand why the devs would incorporate lockouts and repetitive flagging to keep the most elite players from finishing the content too soon. But those same lockouts and flags lose their purpose once those elite players are finished, and the next expansion releases. After that, they only serve as roadblocks to hold back players whose playstyles didn't require any artificial slowing, and who's only option is less powerful, casual guilds.

    Again, this isn't anything that would affect the integrity or the challenge of the events themselves. This merely helps keep more casual raiders from falling too far behind and keeps more content accessible to more players.
  7. Morthakia Augur

    I have so much to say, but I’m a casual forum poster with limited time (too much time dedicated to EQ), so I’ll give the abbreviated version:

    Guilds operate on a performance spectrum. Some guilds blow through nearly every raid on the first try. Others can’t even attempt to muster the force necessary to survive beyond the duration of deflection. Depending on how difficult the raid is, there will be guilds that can beat it and those that can’t. Every time a raid is adjusted, a few more guilds are able to beat it. It isn’t a binary “casuals guilds can/can’t beat raid XYZ” ... it is a sliding scale. Try to remember this when raid design is discussed!

    I like some of the elements of raid design these past couple expansions. For starters, having a “unique” or “Uber” item in the final raid, such as the Talendor Mount and Trophy, helps provide rewards to the guilds that can manage to get that far. My only issue is that the raids should get progressively more difficult as you move through the expansion, with the final raid requiring a step function increase in skill. ROS lacked serverely in this area while it sounds like TBL does this.

    You can also incentive raiders with better rewards from raid achievements. What better test of a guild’s prowess than their ability to complete complex aspects of already difficult raids. Make the reward WORTHWHILE (Nathan Diamond ... Eyes of LIfe + Decay) ... and you’ll sigifniciantly motivate the top guilds while not blocking the smaller ones. This worked in EOK, failed in ROS, and appears to work in TBL (given one needs all achievements in order to level the evolving items to the final tier).
    Whulfgar likes this.
  8. Bigstomp Augur

    I've been on vacation, but I think Bristle checked in at no-nerf earlier on.
  9. Bigstomp Augur


    I don't know, 85% then a chest sounded sorta balanced to me. Like Talendor in RoS.
    Thunderkiks likes this.
  10. Sancus Augur

    Paying 5 krono per raid stream of Mearatas. Unless your name starts with z and ends with aknaffein.
    Thrillho likes this.
  11. Odiiusx Elder

    Stream it then. Maybe we could all learn how to "get gud"
    Allayna likes this.
  12. Sancus Augur

    We have a video of the win, but I believe we’re waiting for someone to claim #2 before we post it. Believe it or not, I’ve had friends in other guilds express disappointment in past expansions when we’ve streamed before (m)any guilds have beaten a raid.

    There are pros and cons for us and for the community with either approach. I probably could be bribed though. And I’m certainly willing to bribe people for the opportunity to watch other guilds work on it. PST.
    svann, Thunderkiks, Tucoh and 3 others like this.
  13. Deillusional Augur

    You can use http://www.elitegamerslounge.com/home/progress/indexarchive.php

    to look at the "removed" guilds easier.
  14. Mintalie Augur

    /afk setting up Twitch account bbl
    Sancus and Tucoh like this.
  15. IblisTheMage Augur

    I believe current raid hardness is the basic necessity for having a good high end community.

    However, it is too hard for most.

    Again, I would propose that a significantly easier raid tier was introduced, that could be zergable, was much more forgiving, could also be scaled for fewer people, and still gave better gear than group gear.

    I am no game designer, so the actual implementation of a “half-raid” I don’t have any solid solutions for.

    Maybe a “casual” raid mode, where the casual raid is scaled for a low number (26? 42?) of casual players. If it is zerged (more than the number decided upon), it gives only group gear. If completed at the correct number or lower, it gives gear better than group, but also distinctly worse than raid.

    Of course there are aditional options: doing the regular raid with low numbers, it gives an achievement, etc etc. This is just gravy.

    Key is to let casuals form small raids and zerg easy versions of raids, without ruining what is good and challenging now.
    Aurastrider and Ryino like this.
  16. Ryino Elder

    I think the TOV remake was perfect for this. I really wish a non progression raid tier was part of all expansions.
    Brohg, niente, Sancus and 1 other person like this.
  17. Bamboompow Augur

    No shortage of old zones to revamp!
  18. Brohg Augur

    Broken Mirror had again with PoFear&Hate. Cazic event was a touch off, balance wise, but both zones were hella accessible with their expansion's basic tier of raid loot. An armor drop, a spell drop, and a bite of currency.
    Ryino and Sancus like this.
  19. Sokki Still Won't Buff You!!

    Does it have to be a win? ;)
    Axxius likes this.
  20. Morthakia Augur

    Completely agree with this. I would love to see a raid tier that had Cursed Templed of Veeshan style “tank and spank” encounters that offered armor in between T1 raid gear and BiS group gear. Something where the mechanics are really basic. It would be an effective way to give guilds a means to prepare for the tougher raids in the expansion. Would also be a good set of targets for pickup raids where folks can’t meet DPS checks, don’t have perfect class balance, or aren’t accustomed to playing together.
    Cailen likes this.
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