Don't allow guild leaders or officers to talk down to people.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Candystore, Jul 26, 2021.

  1. Svann2 The Magnificent

    Talk to them or have the class lead talk to them. Drop them if that doesnt help. But its never useful to yell at people. The person will likely leave, and some others might go with. If thats what you are intending then just be honest about it and boot them and there will be less drama attached to it.
  2. Evye Augur

    This is interesting because I've been told you just get "roasted worse" in the highest end guilds.
    Can anyone confirm or deny such a statement?

  3. Bigstomp Augur

    I don't feel comfortable dealing with all classes but on our casual raids, a tell here an there to a tank or cleric 'Hey, I notice you aren't using this, you should look into it' makes a huge difference.
    A specific spell/aa/disc has been identified that would help (with some notes on how/when to use it).
    Where I imagine a big public rant would do nothing productive and possibly even lose us a valuable member who is doing fine, just not doing ideal.
    Pryssylus and The real Sandaormo like this.
  4. Evye Augur

    A very smart bard in our guild has tried to give this advice to our leaders:
    "Praise in public, critisize in private."
  5. Conq Augur

    Two things. One, public humiliation isn't my first choice, but left with no choice... Second, if you put me in charge of your feels - you're not gonna like it. Be responsible for your own feelings.
    Duder and Metanis like this.
  6. The real Sandaormo Augur

    A high end guild does not have to be toxic. Township Rebellion on Luclin is as fun and easy going as you will find for a "higher end" guild I think you would find. That said, you are in a "higher end" Guild and are expected to know your class and know your roll within a raiding situation.
    Pryssylus, Ozon and Metanis like this.
  7. Metanis Bad Company

    The older I get the more I appreciate a really good A-hole for the benefit of group dynamics. A certain percent of people will always slack and suck unless someone holds them accountable. If you want "touchy feely" go play Care Bears or something.
  8. Cicelee Augur

    I have been in five different top ten guilds over the past decade or so, and have experienced a lot of different leadership styles and communication and chemistry.

    I replied to your comment because you specifically asked about high end guilds. Here is what I have learned the quote/unquote higher that you go-

    There is an expectation that everyone does what they are supposed to do in order to be efficient and win. When you sign up for that, you need to perform and meet those expectations. Whether it be hitting your hot keys at the appropriate time in the appropriate order, to following emotes, to executing strategies... all 54 must perform.

    And that is the big thing. When you are part of these 54, you are not only affecting your play time... but 53 other people as well. And while you might think this game is a blow off that you can relax and do whatever, to the other 53 it is not. Missing an emote or not playing your toon as efficiently as possible could wipe your raid and thus waste the time of the other 53. And when you have 54 raiders and there is one who is not performing, then that one needs to be dealt with.

    Now, as discussed, there are various ways of "dealing". Sending a tell, benching, public comments that are constructive, public comments that are vulgar and abrasive... I have heard it all. And while I find it appropriate in the majority of situations to use the first two methods... sometimes you need to use method three (or even four if it is a close knit group).

    The point is- the higher guilds have a higher expectation, higher performance, higher results, higher urgency, higher competition, and higher forms of feedback. If you want to be in a higher guild, then you better be playing at a higher level because as you can see... everything is higher.
    ShaggyG, Aneia and Winnowyl like this.
  9. Accipiter Old Timer

    Guild leaders that berate, cajole, abuse, etc. should keep on doing what they are doing. After all, there's no way they will make it in the real world. Acting like a child doesn't go over so well there.
  10. Sissruukk Rogue One

    I agree with the "praise in public, criticize in private," however, there are cases where someone needs to be "called out." If someone keeps violating our guild rules, even after having been talked to in private and such, they just get removed, and we briefly explain it in guild chat for everyone to know what just happened (which is often unnecessary because people know when someone keeps breaking the rules).

    The guild that I occasionally raid with handles matters in this way (praise in public, criticize in private), but if someone starts either acting like a spoiled child over issues like loot, or by not winning at new raids, or outright yelling and disrespecting another guild member during a raid, they will be called out, and if they keep it up, they are usually booted as well. Class leads will pull someone aside and go over things with them in private after a raid, and keep coaching the person that needs help as often as needed. There have been instances where someone has been benched because of doing the same things wrong over and over regardless of how much they have been worked with.

    I don't envy the guild leader's role one bit, because sometimes he is getting rid of someone that really knows their class, knows the raids, etc., but because of poor attitudes they have to be let go. He would rather have a guild that is fun for all that works together to overcome content and events that people would think we wouldn't pull off on Vox than to let it be overrun by elitist players who think they are better than anyone else.

    In instances of guild leaders acting this way, you can always move to another guild that has a better environment. No one else is in charge of your mental well-being, only you can make changes to ensure that you are in an environment that you thrive in.
  11. Barraind Grumpy Old Bastage

    Was never really the case. The goal was always do the most in as little time as possible (at times we were trying to do every raid in 2-3 expansions in 2 3-hour blocks and one long weekend day). If someone had to set aside time to single you out, it wasnt for something minor, or something you did once, or something you werent 100% doing just to see if you could.
  12. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    I think it does depend on the kind of players your guild has what leadership "style" works well, in some guilds after a lacklustre attempt where it was evident a majority of your players lacked focus your players will generally appreciate a metaphorical kick up the backside for the collective.

    If you have some players who get real sensitive about being called a bunch of slackers and start getting their knickers in a twist about you threatening to bench or dkp-fine underperformers if they don't pull their finger out it can be easier to just boot them off the raid team, or even out of the guild altogether rather than deal with their whining and drama, you can consider giving them a chance to improve and some reasonable coaching efforts but be clear and reiterate your expectations, however it depends on whether your guild considers itself a raiding guild a casual-raiding guild or a family guild as to how much you are willing to tolerate poor play.

    The real problems start if you have players who join a raiding guild who then start expecting to be able to only have the playing ability expected from a family guild - my advice if you find yourself as a leader having to deal with that is simply don't, it just isn't worth the trouble, if your guild is so desperate for people that you are contemplating putting up with bad players just to have enough to raid with you are better off not doing that, all you will do is piss off people who put in 100% just to have them carry people who can't be bothered to put in more than 25%.
    Maedhros and Cicelee like this.
  13. Pleides Ranger of Fellowship Of Justice. EMarr

    We are all brothers and sisters in this game. I am proud that my guild 'Fellowship of Justice', on the E. Marr server treat all with respect in the guild and all players. Not one officer is better than any other player.
    The best things in life are free and good manners are paramount.
    I am a long standing member and very proud of my guild and these issues don't arise.
    I pray and hope that most folks hold the same respect for all players.

    Fellowship of Justice
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  14. baider Elder

    you should see what its like in high end WoW classic guilds right now, talk about toxic lol, makes EQ end game guilds seem like extremely friendly organized bureaucratic guilds.
  15. Sissruukk Rogue One

    The only thing I miss from WoW was the Murloc-related movie names people would come up with.
  16. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    Leadership is never one-size-fits-all - differing personalities, leadership styles, environment, history all play a role in what leadership approach best suits a situation.

    The most important trait a leader can have, in my humble opinion, is ownership. Ownership sows respect, and respect breeds trust. Trust is the light used to follow a leader, good or bad, to whatever end.
    Corwyhn Lionheart and Aneia like this.
  17. Scornfire The Nimbus Prince

    You can watch the streams to find out for yourself, pretty well all the top end guilds stream with voice comms. Anyone's personal testimony will be colored by bias, but as a general rule I don't think that's particularly true, and I've indeed found it to be the opposite (And, logically speaking, there's generally less to scream at people about in a higher end guild where for the most part every raid night is successful and by and large everyone is pulling their weight)

    Dezy screams at everyone in Discord when she hasn't been fed though, this is true
    Sancus likes this.
  18. MageGuy MageGuy

    I'm with the OP on this one. I just joined a guild. The "co-leader" or "co-lead officer" (yes. We have "co" positions - way too many chiefs) was way off target in his response to another person who is also new to the guild. The dude had asked a question that offended the "co" because it involved work the co had done to the GH. The question, if one is easily offended and it revolves around their work, mayyyyybe could have been taken in an offensive way, but it was just a simple and sincere question. Maybe the co was having a bad day, I don't know, I am still new to the guild.

    But I'll say it did make me think that I may need or want to frame my questions in ways that will minimize these situations, and I shouldn't be in a position where I need to be that careful.

    This is all silly. In the end, this is a freaking game where a ton of its players are non working, welfare leeching, non society contributing bums who mean nothing to me where it matters most (in life).
  19. Accipiter Old Timer

    This is why I don't raid anymore. I don't need that kind of negativity.

    Edit: I mean the negativity of guild drama, not what you posted.
  20. Aneia Master

    There is a fundamental disconnect between these two statements that has not been addressed by previous commenters. Blizzard/Activision and, by extension, Alex "Furor" Afrasabi are not being investigated for "ruling with an iron fist," "cursing at [employees/coworkers]," "being disrespectful toward them," "talking down to people," or otherwise creating an aggressive gaming environment.
    Certainly, similar types of behavior are alleged, but they are not the central issue in the lawsuit. The central issue is overt sexual harassment in real life:
    • 47. ...Afrasabi would hit on female employees, telling [them] he wanted to marry them, attempting to kiss them, and putting his arms around them. This was in plain view of other male employees, including supervisors, who had to intervene and pull him off female employees.
    • 48. ...a female employee committed suicide while on a company trip due to a sexual relationship that she had been having with a male supervisor...before her death, male co-workers were alleged to be passing around a picture of the deceased's [censored].
    • 49 ...former Chief Technology Officer was observed by employees groping inebriated female employees at company events
    • 50 ...female employees also complained that...male employees groped them
    • Source:
    There a many claims regarding equal compensation, project assignment, advancement, managerial style, etc that may or may not have legal consequences based on law and evidence presented in court. I'm not familiar with the specific Fair Housing and Employment requirements in California, but my general attitude is that non-governmental entities ought to hire, fire, promote, compensate, contract, or otherwise interact with whomever/whenever/however they desire. However, it is completely unacceptable for a company or coworkers to violate the bodily autonomy or contractual obligations of its employees, customers, or suppliers. That is the central issue in this lawsuit.
    So, while an aggressive guild environment may be selfish, disgraceful, or sub-optimal, it is not mutually inclusive with overt sexual harassment in real life. Others have commented about when and why it is appropriate for guild leadership to "rule with an iron fist", generally in high pressure situations or with repeat offenders. That is a stylistic choice, and you're correct that anyone uncomfortable with that type of environment should find another guild. No one is obligated to create a empathetic, inclusive guild environment. If it escalates to threatened or actual harm/theft in real life, then it would be equivalent to the Blizzard lawsuit and ought to be pursed through the police or court system.
    In summary, the Blizzard lawsuit and aggressive guild culture are not equivalent. There is overlap, but implying equivalency or causality is a non-sequitur.
    • Don't drink alcohol at work or work related events
    • Don't get romantically/sexually involved with coworkers.
      • If you want to, one of you should find another job first
    • Don't share media of your body with the internet/partner/spouse
      • (depending on your risk tolerance)
    • Adopt the attitude that all people are "created in the image of God" and attempt to treat them with dignity, regardless of their ability or your attitude toward God/religion
      • (dignity is not the same as respect/admiration or even equivalence)
    • Whatever you do, accept the consequences of your actions
    Thank you for coming to my TED talk.