Does the popularity of the TLP servers show that Everquest went down the wrong path?

I went back not too long ago to help someone with it, after excessive protesting, and it wasn't anywhere near as bad as it was at launch, and I'd probably like the zone now if it was a newly released one. However, the "joy" of the tightly packed zone with unmezzable, unrootable run speed immune mobs that you have to fight in tight confines lingers.

They did clean up a lot of the see-invis mobs. That said, most were in predictable places (usually at the entrance/exit of rooms) once you learned the zone. And most times, if you timed the server tick, you could just run right past them without any problems. My only real hatred of that zone was the ramps you had to go up and down 4x for each task. Oh, and the rewarded Degmar Relocation Device that had zero value once you got it and moved on. Not to mention that the cast time was about the same as the time it actually took to run from one end to the other.

As a boxer Degmar is a nightmare (especially with no CoTH) though after caverns of endless time, anything is paradise if you ask me.

Hands down worst memory of Degmar after launch was grabbing the food off of the table and THE ENTIRE ROOM AGROING. UGH that room. I hated that room. People constantly would run in there grab a piece of food then panic when the whole room agro'd them and end up training the mobs to some unexpecting guy nearby.

I can definitely see people hating Degmar more than caverns although I imagine it would be a very very close call. Caverns of Endless Time definitely shorted my lifespan by a couple of hours with how angry it made me my first run through. It has everything you hate packed into one zone, mobs that mez, random mobs that see invis, underwater maze like passages. Fun for the whole family.

In Caverns, you can use the water paths to quickly move from one end of the zone to the other and avoid all the see-invis and mezzing mobs. No need to coth. Can get a whole box group moved around in less than two minutes. Plenty of safe places to set your group back up and get going once at the spot. Ran two different box groups through. Was one of the easier zones for progression (at least less tedious than some of the others).

Don't understand the hate for that zone that so many have. Water combat does suck, but it's only a small part of all the tasks.

For some of the tasks you have to fight the mezzing mobs. The hate comes from moving around the boxes, without CoTH it is extremely tedious whether or not that tediousness bothers you is entirely up to you, most boxers it bothers. Constantly having to zoom cameras out/in and traverse under water passages isn't something i really look forward to doing, I would rather just kill stuff. The second time I did caverns it wasn't as bad as the first, I will definitely say that much. Learning the zone decreased my travel time getting around for sure.

That's where all the hate from the zone comes from. If you enjoy tediously moving characters through underwater passages then you'll probably love it. Two minutes to move characters around is a lot of time and considering how many times you have to do it you're looking at about an hour spent moving characters around.

Compared to how long you spend moving them around in other zones that's a lot.

This is certainly true.

Luclin was the start of "player race means nothing". All races welcome in Luclin, no racial "tensions" anywhere. This persisted in all future xpacs.

Start of fast travel with Spires. PoP finished the job. World immediately shrunk.

The Bazaar - automated buying and selling, killed the awesome player-made markets (EC tunnel, etc).

NPCs become static vending machines with no backstory or anything. NPCs for all tradeskills crammed together in one place for convenience.

EQ was always a game. But Luclin marked the beginning of the end for EQ as a "world", living and breathing. It wasn't all bad, and neither was PoP, but it didn't have the same focus on world building. The kind of focus you can find in Classic, Kunark, Velious.

I still can't believe people enjoyed/enjoy selling items that way. It's so so so tedious, having to argue with people about prices is so ungodly annoying (everyone wants a deal and most of them ask for a buy one get something free deal then throw a fit when you say no). Also without a Bazaar there's no method for checking prices of items that allows scammers to get away with bloody murder in EC by taking advantage of people who don't know what things are priced at. At the start of RF/LJ I watched people get scammed left and right buying items during off hours because there is no way to know what an item is worth without the /baz.

Having to sell items through the tunnel in EC is stressful for both buyers and sellers. It's so hard to gear out an alt in just 1 evening whereas when you have The Bazaar you can gear out an alt in 10 minutes. Also if you don't play that much, or play at weird hours, buying and selling then becomes impossible.

The only people who I can see really liking the EC tunnel are those who enjoy scamming other players. Taking advantage of off hours to sell items for ridiculous prices to people who aren't on during proper hours to see what items are actually worth. I've never had less fun in a video game than when I spend an evening trying to peddle my wares in EC. I even sell my items for 1/2 price just to get it over with as fast as possible, that's how much I absolutely hate doing it.


I'll let you have everything else in your post, While PoK and Luclin shrank the world they were both amazing features imho. Only thing I want to slap you for is thinking EC was good. The Bazaar is a player made economy too, it promotes a much healthier economy than p2p trading could as you can /baz and check prices immediately from anywhere in the entire game. It makes it twice as hard to be scammed.

I wasn't thinking of scammers. I was thinking two things: 1. The Bazaar made twinking easier, and generally I think twinking shortens/devalues the game, and even more importantly, twinking separates the newbs from the vets. The vets with their twink gear are able to solo alone, making life harder for the newbs (who need to find groups). Also the idea of newbs twinking their first character is disappointing. How do you balance the early game when everyone is twinked... (twunk?)

2. I loved the personal touch of p2p trading. The way you got to know people. The way you made relationships with other players. Admittedly these days all info is online, but EC tunnel let you ask vendors where the items they sold dropped. Frankly to me there is nothing as depressing as a Bazaar full of AFK boxes who are just vending machines for cheap twink gear. I don't see that as helpful to world building. Quite the opposite.

Can't really comment on 1 except for saying Twunked out yo.

2. I guess it's the introvert side of me but there is nothing I hate more than being bugged while I am trying to sell items about where stuff drops or people trying to be my friend. Considering how stressful I find trading in EC I usually just close all tell windows that come in from people who aren't looking to buy things.

I guess the difference boils down to you play games to make friends and build relationships (Phinigel type) whereas I started playing games to escape reality and avoid people/social contact. If I wanted to make friends or socalize I would go into the outside world, I starting gaming to avoid people, not meet people! =P

I'm not going to say it's wrong to play an MMO on your own, but I does strike me as a little odd, when there are epic single player RPGs like Skyrim, much better suited to "avoiding people". (If that truly is your aim).

In essence, the design of an MMO should encourage teaming up and playing together, that is its raison d'etre. Whilst soloing is a possibility, I think it should be the hardest path in an MMO. If I was designing an MMO, I'd not include features which remove player to player interactions (such as the Bazaar).

Horses for courses, of course. WoW was designed to make solo the best playstyle!

Most common thing people say to me. Luckily you already used Skyrim as an example so I don't have to!

I've invested at least 5 years into EQ and I still haven't "Beaten' the game. I beat Skyrim in 1 week, about 80% done, only tedious stuff left I wouldn't enjoy doing. That game costs (still) about as much as EQ's X-pac costs.

EQ, 5 years of enjoyment, price tag is 15$ a month with 30$ X-pacs each year.
Skyrim, 1 week of enjoyment, price tag was 59.99.

MMORPGs give you much more content for much lower price and are constantly being updated meaning you can literally play the same game forever once you find a game you enjoy. Single player games are outdated months after buying them and most single player games take 8 - 16hrs to beat and cost 2x more than I spend on EQ.

Also boxing overs the most unique experience and challenge I have ever come across in video gaming. So much so I haven't played a game that isn't EQ in the last couple of years. I don't think I will ever play a video game again without boxing either, single player games I still will play because I appreciate the story of a lot of them but I only buy them on 75% off steam sales usually.

I guess we find each other equally odd.

Indeed I dislike the concept of boxing too (Which isn't to say I dislike people who box, I should add!)

Although I'm still not decided if it's a symptom of a dying game, or a cause, or both I think it's probably a symptom more than anything.

But in the "ideal" world, every player would have one char (at a time) and group with other players. (My ideal world is probably your vision of hell!)

My only observation is that if it's really all about socializing, grouping and making friends then why to TLP servers historically all fall apart. If you are playing with your friends why do you bail on them when whatever expansion is your threshold release?

I don't think that's a fair argument. People stop going to the gym because they stop enjoying it, even if their friends still go. Same with bingo, or football, or whatever.

Yes, socialising should be required to reach the heights of MMOs, because soloing your way through is so utterly unfulfilling. The game screams at you that you're supposed to group up. The best memories are from groups who achieved great things (or raids if that's your game).

But if you stop having fun (once Luclin releases for me), then it shouldn't be considered "bailing" any more than if you stopped going to the gym, or playing bingo, you'd be "bailing" from your friends that still enjoyed it. Friends don't get bitter when their bingo partner decides to stop playing. They try to understand that bingo isn't fun for them anymore, and it's not their fault or a reflection against them personally.

Playing EQ was all about forging relationships, but that doesn't mean you can chop and change the EQ formula and people wouldn't quit. That happened and... they did. Look at Gates, for example.

Why should socializing be required and soloing be discouraged if the first is so fulfilling and the second not so? I mean if no one found soloing fulfilling in some way they wouldn't do it. And if everyone found socializing to be the most fulfilling then everyone would be doing it and there would be no need to require it.

I do see a number of people who play solo socialize a lot in the game. Even boxing I sometimes spend the largest part of my time online talking to others and interacting with them either through guild chat or tells. I actually find the great thing about Everquest is that it allows so many play styles to all interact together.

Now looking at this from the perspective of people being able to solo/molo current expansion group content that might indicate some classes as being overpowered but I am not an expert on every class so I am not pointing fingers at anyone. Just saying that might be a reason that is a bit more valid in pushing people to group. But there are arguments for and against that too and both sides have good points.

I do know whenever Daybreak/SOE has gotten too agressive in pushing people into a new expansion such as the big RoF exp nerk that the community rose up justifiably ticked off. Forcing people to do things doesn't work nearly as well as encouraging them with positive reinforcement... more carrot less stick.

Indeed it is. I have Aspergers so socializing is stressful, tedious and all around unpleasant for me. I have struggled with fitting in for my entire life, so I started playing games. This is a good middle ground for me, I can bump into someone and say hi and chat them up but it is never required to progress.

Just recently I have tried applying to a guild on my server and I said no to vent. I don't feel comfortable getting on vent for raids, I don't even feel comfortable calling someone i know in real life on the phone. The whole idea of talking on the phone causes me anxiety. If I have to call for a doctor's appointment I literally have to "psych" myself up to make the phone call.

I really dislike the idea of guilds essentially forcing you to socialize these days (if I can raid without messing up - why am I required to get on voice chat? If I mess up fine, ill get on, but if I don't joining should NOT be a requirement).

Best memory I have of EQ is boxing my first raid and downing raid boss all by myself. It was such an amazing feeling doing something solo that requires a full raid of people. I've yet to achieve a similar feeling from playing any game.

I have a question for you though, do you think it is unfair for people with social disorders who still wish to play MMORPGs? Requiring socializing ultimately is unfair to people like me who have Aspergers or other social disorders. Some socializing is fine with me. I understand I WILL have to talk to people in game from time to time just like I will in real life. However rules like having to be on vent a 100% requirement I am curious what a more normal person thinks of that for someone like me who would suffer from anxiety being on vent with all of those people.

My wife is the same way. Incredible enchanter, but anxious about voice chat + phone Even text chat is tough for her if it's somebody she doesn't know. You're not alone!

Re: Luclin, it's funny; Luclin is where I started to really enjoy the game. I loved exploring (or trying to explore) places like Akheva Ruins. More tradeskill quests. The mystery of Seru vs. Katta. A much higher group-to-raid ratio. It was excellent.

Granted I don't run a raid guild but we also don't use voice chat at all. Other guilds do so people have a choice. For myself when I talk on the phone at work all day I want a bit of quiet. I also think having to type messages gives a bit of time for people to think before they type.

I have done open raids with some mid tier raid guilds that didn't require voice chat. When raiding with guilds that do I have voice chat on to listen but don't hook up a mic unless I have to.

It's so you can listen to the raid leader. You don't have to say anything, and for the most part, it's better if you don't.

Voice comms are significantly faster than text for relaying instructions and communicating reactive tactics changes. Using voice chat is the first step I recommend to guilds that are tired of wallowing in mediocrity forever. It's a night and day difference for raid leaders and officers.

The people who won't join voice chat are being selfish special snowflakes and expect any instructions to be typed up just for them, or they'll screw up the raid by doing whatever they feel like instead of what they should be doing.

While I won't deny it's being selfish to expect special privileges it's also unfair for people in my shoes. The people who require voice chat and won't see the other end of the issue are being arrogant and self centered by implying "this is the only way you can raid and be good". I do know why people require voice chat, I just don't like anything about it at all.

Also I think it's fair to say I will join voice chat if I mess up. While it is arrogant sounding that way it is at least fair for both parties. If the person normally doesn't mess up - why do they have to be on voice chat in the first place? To stop other people from complaining is the only reason. I raided with a guild for about a year and a half that didn't require voice chat. I also raided with a lot of RoI during that time so if you want to check with your guildies you can. I never spoke a word in guild, or during raids, and never joined vent. During that time I never made a mistake that wiped the raid. I never even made a mistake that resulted in anyones death but my own characters (which would have still happened if I was on voice)

Even If I did enjoy hearing a bunch of nerds shout out directions while I am trying to play a game I am one of those people who can't concentrate while someone is talking to me. I go blank when I hear a human voice, I just can't think at all. Most likely caused by the anxiety of someone talking to me. I just do not like it sam I am I do not like green eggs and ham.