Distinguishing Warriors from Knights

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Dre., Mar 19, 2016.

  1. Dre. Altoholic

    There is a long-standing, troubling trend in gaming balance discussions. Some have described this as homogenization or farming out of class-specific abilities. 'Class socialism' is a less-used moniker that I personally find more interesting. In all cases, this unstoppable force is a vanilla tide that seeks to erode everything which distinguishes one class from another.

    "They have it - I want it too" might have a childish innocence to it, but when this becomes "I should have it too" we run into problems - especially when others rally to support the narrative. Perhaps more innocently (though often manipulatively) the vanilla tide can also say "They should be more like me".

    Between tanks in EverQuest, there are a few ways this has manifested itself over the years: Defensive disciplines, activated agro abilities, practical shield usage, fearlessness or stun immunity... the list goes on and on. Rather than discuss ways tanks have been made to behave more and more similarly, I'd like to discuss how we can turn the ship around and keep things unique and flavorful by having these classes behave more differently.

    Defense

    The core distinction between Warriors and Knights has historically been one of spell-based advantages vs innate/melee advantages. For defense, a raw mitigation advantage was Warriors' counterbalance to Knight self-healing and runes. As such, the supposition that Knight survival problems (particularly against raid bosses) are absolutely a result of mitigation disparity is more than a little short-sighted.

    I assert that these disparities should not be reduced by narrowing the mitigation gap or granting healing abilities to Warriors, but rather expanded. Particularly in the realm of 'shielding' and AC-like abilities. The goal here is to shift higher sustained and spike damage toward a value that is less threatening, while simultaneously reducing or even eliminating the impact of trivial hits. Note that this is approach is about "changing the curve" rather than simply changing what magical number each class gets for their %-based mitigation tools.

    Activated abilities need to be a major part of this as well. The days of 'autoattack and afk' are behind us. Besides - that's so boring! Meaningful abilities that help avoid, reduce and prevent incoming damage (of all types - not just melee damage) need to find their way into the Warrior arsenal. Powerful abilities on fast cooldowns that help us survive the nastier enemies and utterly dominate weaker enemies are both key to remaining competent as the only tank class without heals.

    Not ignoring Knights' survival concerns, distancing all three tanks from other non-tank classes in terms of base HP pools could give both Knights and Warriors the unique headway tanks need for contact survival. And with higher HP pools, Knight healing advantages become even more effective. Passive improvements to healing and runes help stave off damage attrition, while enabling friendlier interaction with other healers. Staying constantly near full health is one of the best ways to defend against against damage spikes. And a higher total HP provides a better chance to respond to said spikes when they occur - with activated healing abilities.

    Agro

    Historically this was largely melee/proc-based for Warriors vs spell-based for Knights. Without rehashing some darker pages of Warrior history, Warriors have semi-recently shifted to a mostly-activated model of pure agro abilities, some of which look awfully arcane in nature.

    I propose a "back to our roots" approach here, beginning with an immediate cessation of certain lines of instant hate abilities for Warriors. Over time, agro improvements to swing-based hate generation and damage-based skill attacks can help put Warriors back in a more classic and lore-appropriate position. One where they are not dependent on overpowered buttons with long cooldowns, silly abilities that summon mini-me clones or throbbing mind waves to nearby enemies.

    And agro does not need to be limited to what the tank generates. SK's can boost agro generation of other players and Paladins can reduce it. There is an opportunity for Warriors here to have agro control abilities that are enemy-focused; paying more attention to the tank's actions and less to those of everyone else.

    DPS

    It's important to recognize that distinguishing DPS between tanks does not need to mean one class universally delivering more damage than another. In fact, the three tank classes are best served being somewhat similar in overall DPS, with unique flavor differences. While DPS is somewhat secondary to tanks, many DPS and Agro abilities go hand-in-hand. One of the best way to distinguish Warriors from Knights is to do it visually - with Dual Wield. Warriors are a melee class. It's time to start looking the part again.

    And not just look the part but perform like it. Overwhelm our opponents with a staggering number of swings via through Hundred-Hands procs (that naturally would proc more when we dual wield) Decimate enemies with a multitude of activated skill attacks, not wimpy lvl 83 shield bumps or paper cuts against enemies below 20% health. Better-sustainable damage mods that are *gasp* more dangerous to the enemies than they are to ourselves.

    On the spell side, Knights benefit from a cornucopia of already-existing SPA's that can make their spell and proc damage look like... well, whatever they want it to look like. The the limit is higher than the sky here. Yet despite all this, and even after recent and significant boosts, melee damage increases are still at the forefront of, or even the only menu item on many Knights' DPS agenda. I challenge those who only see Knight DPS through the blinders of melee damage to expand their vision.

    Utility

    Utility has become somewhat of a four-letter word in class balance discussions. Far too often does a class misrepresent and downplay their own utilities while doing the opposite against those they seek to increase their relative power against. Many even consider utility an inconvenient burden that holds them back. Well quite simply, utility doesn't have to look like that.

    Tanks exist to protect their groupmates and outlast their opponents. Utility can assist to that end in ways the core tenets of combat can't (defense, agro, healing, dps). Superior combat control, groupmate survival, party leadership and enabling excellence in their teammates are all things tanks can bring to groups - not just themselves - through their utility.

    For Warriors, that might look like a Warrior standing between a mob and someone else, shielding them from spell damage while granting a bonus to agro reduction abilities. Or a Warrior crippling their opponents' ability to use some of their more dangerous specials. That might look like Warriors rallying their allies back into combat faster after something goes wrong.

    But the big deficit Warriors have in terms of utility is quality of life - neglected for far too long in EverQuest. Improvements to soloability, travel and fluidity of combat can absolutely be areas of opportunity in the scope of expanding Warrior utility. A Warrior need not stealthily tiptoe around trivial enemies that should be scattering with fear in his presence. A Warrior need not fall victim to surprise attacks he's seen dozens of times before. A Warrior need not be hindered in combat by summoning or movement-impairing abilities designed to prevent cowardice - a word he only understands in the eyes of the timid.

    TL;DR-

    The path ahead for tanks does not have to mean Knights looking more like Warriors or Warriors looking more like Knights. There can be three paths - one for each of us - each uniquely suited to our tastes, even if they do end up leading to the same eventual destination.
    Damoncord likes this.
  2. Amped Journeyman

    Well spoken. I agree on all points.
  3. Ghubuk Augur

    In other words, lets make warriors better and knights worse. Couldnt you have just put this in the other thousand page thread?
  4. Ghubuk Augur

    I probably sound jaded but it is very much true that the gap in mitigation between knights and warriors was far too much. This is mostly due to using a percentage based system. It causes the gap to be in actual numbers larger and larger as time goes on.
  5. Onhanis Stonescale Elder

    I believe Dre. means that they should bring the 3 tank classes back to their original ways of existing, with Warriors being the best Tank, but bad at basically everything else ("The Meatshield"), and Knights being more "utility tanks" that can competently do things other than tanking (SKs DPSing and Pallies healing or DPSing undead) when the group has a better tank (more AAs, better gear, more skilled, whatever). Right now from what I've gathered it's just 3 tank classes battling to be the best (queue the Pokemon theme please). It's not a beg to buff Warriors and nerf SKs, it's trying to make them both better.

    Edit: Sorry for the wall of text, didn't realize how long that was gonna be.

    TL;DR: Dre. isn't trying to get Knights nerfed. He's trying to get classes to be more like they were in the old days.
  6. Dre. Altoholic

    You're describing the exact mindset I'm attempting to turn around with the thread.

    Don't think "What do they do better than me?" Think "What can I do better than them?"
    Vdidar likes this.
  7. Ghubuk Augur

    Except that we need to be able to do our primary job which is tank. When the mitigation gap is that large, mobs are tuned to the higher mitigation and no amount of trying to cast a lifetap while tanking is going to make up that kind of difference.
  8. Dre. Altoholic

    I spoke specifically on how this could be achieved through improvements to healing, runes and higher HP pools in the first post.

    Regardless, the point of the thread is not about absolute power values of one class vs the other in any given role, but focusing on the unique abilities and methods they employ to perform within that role.

    Specific to the role of tanking, it's not "who tanks better" but rather "how they tank differently" and how to improve each class through different means rather than making them the same (moar mitigation!)
  9. Ghubuk Augur

    Done properly, i do like your idea...but only if done properly..:)
  10. Kamea Augur

    Whatever is done to our DPS, they need to make it so you can't just AFK vs a dummy and let it run full time, because that's how knights like to get us nerfed.

    ----

    I agree with the idea of HHE, but I'd broadly like to see DW get a personality of its own as being more 'self reliant' DPS, ie better DPS from a tank group using DW, better DPS from a DPS group using 2H, so both of them have a real purpose.
    Dre. likes this.
  11. Xanathol Augur

    The only similarity in dps between warriors and sks should be their melee. SKs don't take on dps spells just to be lesser tanks that have to cast to make up for what they lost. The point of not being one thing is to favor another.
  12. Kamea Augur


    So getting mitigaiton parity while keeping your untuned discs + spell book isn't enough, you already got a big unintentional melee buff with stances with warrior tuning, and you also want melee parity while getting to keep your DPS spells + upcoming (potentially large) DOT buffs?

    What next, you want them to boost knight AC returns to be on parity with warriors?
  13. Amped Journeyman

    Kamea do you honestly believe Warriors should mitigate better, out aggro, have more AC, more HP, need less heals, and on top of all that, still do more damage than Sks, even though we have dots, a pet, and lifetaps on top of our melee?
  14. strongbus Augur

    Not a tank class but I have always thought that the way they should do it is tune the content around so that all 3 tanks can tank anything raid or group but make it so war need less external support then a knight dose. For example take a sk pally and war and have them all the same gear/aa. take a raid that the boss hits for say 50k. Make it so that all 3 can get up there and tank it but that the war needs say 1/2 to 3/4 less healing to stay alive then the knights need to stay alive. This lets the knights to be able to handle any tanking role in the raid but still gives the war a big enough edge that they are still top dog in the tanking area.
    Dre. likes this.
  15. Xanathol Augur

    You and Mistake are delusional. I never stated SKs should tank equal to Warriors but you two certainly think Warriors should be 'the' tanks and the dps tank, SKs be damned. Well luckily you are the exception, not the rule and have zero influence in this game. The 2her stance we got was completely intentional and compared to ISS, still underpowered. SKs are not casters who tank, but tanks who cast. Your wish to make that otherwise is meaningless.
  16. Dre. Altoholic

    What's being glazed over is that every class in EQ has a meaningful portion of their damage potential come from non-autoattack sources, except for Warriors.

    When Warrior autoattack DPS is used as a starting point rather than the finish line, this suggests misunderstanding or dishonesty. And those who suggest that #thestruggle of having to cast spells entitles them to DPS superiority over Warriors likely have not had to deal with the very-real downsides of abilities like Battle Leap or Offensive Discipline.

    That said, spell-type damage has plenty of other distinctions from melee combat - ability to be used from range and any angle, affect multiple targets, generate healing, trigger debuffs or other utilities, proc cast-type ADPS abilities, unaffected by melee slows and so on and so on. Wearing all of that as a burden rather than an opportunity is not the most honest representation of the situation either.

    I agree it's inappropriate for any class to eclipse another both offensively and defensively. However I'd add that discussions around those kind of power levels are outside the scope of this thread, which is about making the "how" of tanks work different functionally, rather than what number gets pasted into guildchat from a damage parser.
  17. Mistatk Augur

    Well said. I think keeping the tank classes different and unique makes the game more fun.
  18. Kamea Augur


    You're partially wrong. I did 80k DPS on a burn the other night from activated DPS + procs. They have actually upped proc damage a lot lately (my 2H's is 1500k), so rage of rallos + BP click (why our BP click is still a DPS proc is beyond me, but I digress) + lion can actually add up to real DPS on a short burn.

    The problem is, 55k DPS of that was from strikes (and this is after the heroic blade nerf), and was heavily dependent on RNG, and as it was in a old raid zone, is no way replicatable on modern raids with modern mitigation. My heroic blade would've been ~1/3 the damage in TBM. So...

    I'd change:
    What's being glazed over is that every class in EQ has a meaningful portion of their damage potential come from non-autoattack sources, except for Warriors.

    To this:
    What's being glazed over is that every class in EQ has a reliable portion of their damage potential come from non-melee sources, except for Warriors.

    The other problem with warriors is duration. Ever since we got strikes, warriors have excelled at sub 60s burns (the famous 2011 Lilth parse was ~45s) where high-RNG strikes could pad the DPS, and since warriors also win at AFK melee parses (why knights with too much time on their hands do this is beyond me), people wrongly conclude that we're also good at time frames in between 50 seconds and 50 minutes. But that's not the case. I heard plenty of SKs say their DPS falls off too much when their burns drop, but from my experience, SKs excel even more at 5-10m durations than wars, ie, their spells beat battle leap + war stomp + shield topple.

    ============

    If you're talking DPS, there are two EQs. There's group content + dummies + absolutely pointless pre-TDS raids --- and there's high mitigation modern raids. For at least the warriors and SKs I know, DPS is closer to balanced in the former, and SKs have a decisive edge in the later, as SKs are vastly superior at overcoming the mitigation boosts of modern raids.
    Dre. likes this.
  19. Kamea Augur

    So the way not to be delusional is pretending an AA that removed from the game years ago still exists?
  20. Dre. Altoholic

    I was referring to the 'autoattack vs dummy' style being represented as Warrior base nonactivated DPS (often padded by leap/stomp not counting down in GH). Shorter duration and combined parses tend to vary wildly, contain complicating factors and often are cherry-picked to illustrate the poster's narrative rather than the reality of the situation.
    Sounds vaguely reminiscent of Luclin. Very interesting indeed.