Distillate Potions gone till PoR?

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Nuggziee, May 16, 2018.

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  1. Krezzy Augur

    Let's start in the middle of the list with the healing potions. I agree, as it seems do most posters here.

    The other potions, however, are objectively worse than buffs you can get in PoK. Speed of Vallon lasts 2-3 times as long as the potion, grants stat and attack bonuses, and provides 18% more haste. The other potions compare similarly to buffs that are available 24/7 in PoK. The only reason to use a potion is to save yourself the 10 minute round trip.

    These are certainly a matter of convenience rather than game balance.

    What's more, the Alacrity series is a clear replacement for the original, bug-prone alchemy recipes. In fact, recipes use the exact same ingredients for the original potions and distillates. In this case, we're going from updated alchemy to something objectively worse than classic.

    Restoring classic recipes is conceptually easy, but probably very difficult to execute. Currently, if a recipe is out of era, it simply generates an error. Restoring these recipes would require a new, more complex tradeskill framework where the skill check and result are era-dependent. It makes a lot more sense to everyone involved to simply keep the update intact when it isn't causing game balance issues.
  2. Fumi-chan Augur

    I don't think anyone disagrees the healing potions should be removed. They absolutely should if they trivialize content. However, the other potions don't seem all that game breaking and as Krezzy mentioned, aren't any better than what is already available.

    What people want is alchemy to go back to being fun and useful. It's still kind of useful I suppose, but there is a sense of independence gained from pots which players enjoyed. Regardless of the reasons for removal, taking away potions (minus healing) is just a kick in the shins and yet another reason for people to be irritated with DBG.
  3. Ahze Journeyman

    Or they could not worry about originalism to please a minority of players and leave things as they have been working quite successfully for several years.
  4. Herf Augur

    Wow. That explains a lot :)
  5. Kahna Augur

    I already agreed the heal pot was OP and I’m not arguing with it’s removal, though it does nicely counter the fact that clerics, shaman and druid’s Raid play only appeals to a small set of folks and finding/keeping them can prove difficult.

    The rest of the pots are all worse than the buffs they replace. The fact that I have a pocket full of clarity pots doesn’t mean I don’t want an enchanter, who’s mana regen buff is better than the potions, and who brings more to the table than just buffs, it just means I am paying a shaman 200p once or twice a week when I stock up rather than playing the chanter in the nexus 10p every 4 hours. Tell me that’s not just a QoL thing. Same goes for haste and the mana/health regen. The classes who cast those spells also bring more to the table than just those spells. I have never turned down a Bst because I had potions.

    I don’t play on Agnarr, and other servers don’t get these pots till PoR, not DoN. Phinny has proven that these server drop down to a “boxes or guild members only” group situation long before PoR. These pots help people compensate when the needed classes can’t be found, not as a replacement for bringing the person when they can be found.

    QoL 100%. Why do you think they created these potions in the first place? QoL. That’s why. They were originally introduced as the solution to a problem, a problem we already know will happen, so why not introduce them before the problem has a chance to have a negative impact on the server, rather than wait? PoR is waiting too long. PoP is the best option. Agnarr might be fine now, but it is going to need these more than any other server when they start to lose population. These potions can help compensate for that future loss.
  6. Darchon_Xegony Augur

    I don't understand why every Melee needs Haste and every caster needs extra mana Regen. People are talking about this as though you cannot play the game without pocket KEI or pocket Haste. It surely isn't optimal, but neither is soloing or playing with a duo or trio.

    It's not the end of the world to have lower DPS, take longer to kill things and need to take more breaks to meditate. I expect to have to med more on my Agnarr characters and maybe the Melee in my group will be lower DPS if we can't get a hasting class. That's fine. We already overpower the content in plenty of other ways.
  7. Polekn Elder

    Even without haste melee would still do more damage than they did when those raid encounters were tuned. And mitigate damage much better. Casters are much more powerful than they were in era as well. Still they want more "QoL" changes...
  8. Kahna Augur

    If not having these things isn’t game ruining, because they aren’t that big a deal then why is having them game breaking? After all, they aren’t that big a deal.

    Why is it so horrible if people have mana regen that is worse than chanter mana regen? Or haste that costs them money to maintain when they can’t find a chanter? It won’t make chanters unvalued, it will just make a non chanter group actually worth the time.
  9. Krezzy Augur

    Melee still have great access to haste and casters still have the best possible mana regen.

    The issue here is a combination of things:
    • Loss of convenience of having expendable items that give inferior effects without the run to PoK.
    • Lack of Shaman potions which were replaced by distillates now gone from EQ, reducing Alchemy skill to uselessness.
    • Lack of a path to Alchemy(300) skill for dedicated tradeskillers.
  10. snailish Augur

    I have no issues with Ngreth's posts and appreciate the clarifying of the optics around the potions/marketplace thing. I wasn't wearing a "tinfoil hat" and would have no issue with them saying "we are taking these out to make more money because they are a luxury in this era". That is not what is being said (basically the opposite is) but it just isn't a big bad problem that I see either way. I think posts giving Ngreth a hard time on this are silly.

    Ngreth loves the tradeskills people. Let's ask for something like this:

    "Hey Ngreth, can we get some of the old-style tradeskill combines reinstated for skill leveling? Maybe some of the effects (i.e., on potions) need tuned down to suit eras, but overall we could really use more old-school ways to make more old-school stuff. There's an opportunity to be creative... an attunable dusty black silk sash with a lower haste value might be the perfect kind of trade good to "restore" to original itemization" (as a made-up example)

    To give another example, choosing KEI for fun:
    If one truly believes that 4 hour enchanter KEI is necessary to succeed... then that buff is overpowered. Other buff combos provide mana regen... if KEI is so much better, and so necessary... yet the content remains too easy with modern spells, dps & player knowledge we are making a very strong case to have KEI moved later era such as to OoW as-is, or vastly reduced in duration and/or amount of regen to stay on earlier era.

    Faster XP, slower, more tactical combat due less player overpower via spells, melee dps and sweet gear on all is a much better replayability recipe than all buffs at low levels and steamroll everything solo or in what should be too small of a group or raid.

    If you want massive OP quest... live servers have that tuned up extremely well for the run to 85.
  11. Darchon_Xegony Augur

    Any class being able to self HoT for the same as a max level Cleric in PoP every 2min is a big deal. Almost any class being able to double your standing mana Regen anywhere at any time with two potions that are extremely cheap, is a big deal. Being able to increase your Melee DPS by 50% with an extremely cheap potion by yourself at any time, is a big deal.

    You lost a huge amount of convenience when you logged into a TLP server compared to a live server. They giveth and they taketh every patch. They gave back a huge amount in the previous patch with Buff blocking and Bag clicking for example.

    I fully agree all old Alchemy recipes should be options.

    Not every tradeskill needs a path to 300. No one is complaining that tinkers couldn't reach 300 during Classic or Kunark. Or complaining that the path to 300 in Velious and Luclin is absurd.
  12. Kahna Augur

    1. I, and pretty much everyone else on the thread has already agreed the hot potions were op.

    2. You said not having mana regen or haste wasn't a big deal. That groups could just get along without them. If they aren't a big deal to not have then they aren't a big deal to have. You can't have it both ways. Either it's a really big deal and it's easy to understand why people don't want to play without it, because doing so make you half as effective as you would be without it, and who wants to spend their limited play session making half the progress they could have made. Or it's not a big deal and the potions don't really hurt anything. I don't play on Agnarr, I don't have "forever" to get to max level. I also have other hobbies and a job and stuff and I want to play effectively when I play. That is why people don't play without mana regen buffs. To clarify it for you. Since you said you don't understand what the big deal is.

    3. Groups won't just get along without mana regen. They will either break up because the group pull speed can't keep up with healer mana, or people will make excuses to leave the slow exp group until they finally get a chanter or the group will stop everything it is doing while the cleric gates to the nexus and pays a chanter for KEI then runs all the way back to the group. I would rather just have the potions, since the buff is effectively mandatory. You aren't going to get people to change their mind by saying "just play less efficiently". This is the way EQ has been since KEI became a thing.

    Having the potions gave me the ability to make a bad group (most pugs) tolerable. Now I will just avoid those bad groups. Pretty much means pugging is off the table completely. I'll stick to only grouping with my friends, who always bring along their pocket chanter.
    Ahze likes this.
  13. Febb Augur

    It sounds like you want to play on a live server or a progression server that is further along where HEM is quicker to replenish. I would suggest Phinigel when TSS hits as out of combat regen will be in and newbie zones in TSS will be busy with new players leveling there.
    Ryak likes this.
  14. taliefer Augur

    or they could just leave the distilates in and let them serve their intended purpose.

    if they feel that HoT pots are too strong, then adjust them. but that would require effort, rather than just a blanket adherence to some "out of era" policy.
  15. Kahna Augur

    Nope, I have zero nostalgia for TSS or live, and my friends aren't on Phinny or live. If you really think TSS will be swarming with new players you are going to be disappointed. There will be some, but pugs will still be next to impossible to find as those folks leveling up alts will stick to grouping with friends or PLing until the are of level to group with friends, and there won't be enough true new players to support a thriving pug community.

    The community on Phinny is set, people are sticking to guild/friend groups, and TSS won't change that.

    Far more likely that I will just keep playing with my static group and our army of support alts until my friends stop playing and then I will quit until the next server opens and we decide to play again. That, however, doesn't change the fact that mana regen is considered a requirement in grouping situations by the whole of the Everquest community, minus a few random outliers.
  16. GeauxTigers Elder

    The ONLY objection I have and the ONLY objection most people have is flat out removing the distillates (which the entire idea was to streamline the alchemy potions with) and not reintroducing the old ones. If you're looking for the old ones and will eventually fix it, why not just wait till the same patch? It's not broken at all. It's been distillates for 10 years. Like, what?
    Deavirtus likes this.
  17. Uumdano Elder

    Perhaps a simple change (?) of not allowing tlp distillate potions to stack w/ their corresponding spell is in order? Seems to me this might be the wisest and even perhaps simplest solution. That and maybe tack on an extended use timer on the healing pots.

    This would be a fair change to older and newer tlp servers alike without having to trash the whole trade skill, much like what was done with research where you can buy a spell in PoK before you can research it. I can not speak to poison as I have never played a rogue however having invested much time in trade skills over the years and enjoying the challenge of being self sustainable via both grouping (I six box currently) and trade skills, I can not help but think there must be a better compromise.

    I often think I must be a masochist for continuing to play but now that I have spent my own money for the first time in over four years to sub to the game, I find myself wondering what else out there might be more deserving of my subscription money.
  18. taliefer Augur

    they dont stack
  19. Krezzy Augur

    This argument makes no sense. TLP servers have the same EULA as live servers, and aren't marketed as Calvinball servers. Can you show where DBG sets this expectation for their customers?

    So, here's the deal. If original Alchemy recipes were in-game, the path to 300 and skill's utility would be fixed. There are problems with this, though. Alchemy buffs themselves were notoriously buggy. The recipes got reused for distillates. Re-coding and adding in classic recipes will probably be painful in terms of effort and hours.
  20. Uumdano Elder

    I am a bit embarrassed to not have known this considering I have a 250+ alchemist. In my 6 box, I do not need the extra regen so I have literally never used most distillates, only recently started making them due to the augmentations that require super duper rare components.

    If this is truly the case, I really, really do not understand this change.
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