Dexterity, wt*?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by nodontcarekkthxbye, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. nodontcarekkthxbye New Member

    Still remains unclear what exactly Dexterity does, at least on TLP, in earlier expansions.

    The hover over info says it influences wether or not you hit or miss, damage done, and chance to raise skills.

    Then there are quotes from the producer, or someone high up saying what dexterity does, and not mentioning ANYTHING about damage done, or hitting, and missing. Also, the websites that say this as well.

    Then on Live you have all the melee going for DEX over STR, but that is heroic dexterity?

    So, what are we suspose to think?

    Any evidence as to what it does, on TLP ? I could be dwarfing my dps by not adding dexterity, or I could be wasting dps by gearing up dex that doesnt do anything for my melee dps.
  2. Bigstomp Augur

    If you have enough of it, I think it's 1000 needed, it makes you immune to MoTM
  3. Bigstomp Augur

    Seriously though, if I remember right it increases proc rate, things like parry/riposte, and other weapon related stuff.

    On live they're talking about heroics. We're maxed on base dex for a while.
  4. WaitingforMoreEQ Augur

    Dex does 3 things in early content
    1) It's the stat the is used to determine how often you get skill ups for all but one offensive skills, like Weapon skill, double attack, dual wield ect. Having higher weapon skill makes you hit more often and for harder often. But once you're capped on those skills it doesn't do anything for damage. "offense" is the one it doesn't effect, its increase rate is tied to str.
    2) It makes your weapons proc more often, not by much but enough that it matters
    3) It gives you extra ATK on ranged attacks. Bow throwing ect
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  5. Fanra Augur

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  6. Poyzen Frawg Augur

    I think the answer is looking at the STATs window. You get diminishing returns as your heroic value gets higher. It makes sense to have a perfect balance of both STR and DEX because of that. If I am wrong, its because Heroic DEX needs a nerf.
  7. yepmetoo Augur

    No, just no.
  8. Poyzen Frawg Augur

    Why not? What more reasonable answer do you have?
  9. yepmetoo Augur

    You are simply making things up, thus, no.

    There are no diminishing returns on heroic stats.

    Spreading out stats is the worst thing you can do (since we're talking about dexterity).

    HStr gives less dps than Hdex does.

    If you're a tank, splitting between dex and agi means that you are increasing the gap between mob heroic strikethrough and your avoidance checks.

    If you are using dex max it. If you are a raid tank and go for sta instead due to raid mob strikethrough,then no reason to get any dex/agi focused augs unless they happen to be high ac augs.
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  10. Lifeshriek Elder

    dex and h dex also gives a small increase to melee crit rates. h dex gives the same bonus in terms of the crit rate as dex because it functions as over capping it. i was told it gives a 1% increase somewhere around every 1500 dex you gain (and every 1 point of dex gives a small increase to add up to that, it doesn't truncate so to speak. this might seem small but it should help in the long run more than h str would for melee dps. because of that (along with the bonus to proc rates, ranged dps etc, defensive bonuses etc) it might be wise if you are a meleeing character that wants to raise their dps to stack dex, over cap dex (such as on tribute), and heroic dexterity.
    h str and str does give some benefit but its basically atk bonus and 1 dmg increase to every melee hit for every 10 h str you accrue. i would probably place the value when weighing gear choices at least from a beastlord's standpoint in how much h dex there is and then h str/spell dmg (for like a tiebreaker) there is on it when choosing which piece to pick. hope that helps some.
  11. Poyzen Frawg Augur


    First off. I'm not making things up. there ARE diminishing returns, and thus your point of spreading out is also wrong.

    Look at the Heroic mods; For example: If it takes +80 more hero Dex for my next point of Combat Effects and only 5 points of Hero STR for my next point of DS/DS mit, or +10 hero agi for my next point of avoidance and strike through ….. why would I not balance?

    In Fact, I DO balance. The result is that I have the longest life span, and I do over-all the highest amount of total DMG throughout a day of raiding and grouping.
  12. roth Augur

    You’re both right!

    Heroics do have diminishing returns, and indeed a point beyond which there is no benefit at all, when you look at Mod3’s.

    Thing is - not many people care about Mod3’s. They care instead about the direct benefit that the Heroics provide. For Str, it is an increase in Attack, and an increase in melee damage output (HStr/10, rounded down, as last stage damage bonus per hit). For Dex, it is an increase in ranged Attack, a bump to Parry and Riposte, and an increase in ranged damage output (HDex/10, rounded down, as last stage damage bonus per hit).

    HStr also increases base Str, so you can carry more, get an increase in Attack. HDex also increases base Dex, so you get an increase in your proc rate and crit rate. HDex and HAgi also counter the mob’s Heroic Strikethrough, allowing you to actually Parry, Riposte, Dodge, and Block mob attacks.

    Those effects, particularly those derived from the Heroic directly and not tied to the Mod3’s, have no diminishing returns.

    Those Heroic effects, not the Mod3’s effects, are why spreading yourself around is foolish. The countering mob Heroic Strikethrough in particular is why it is foolish to spread yourself around if you are a tank. HSta and accept that you’re going to get hit, so get the HP to survive it .. or one of either HDex or HAgi to avoid some of the hits instead of absorbing them.

    After a point, with a very high crit rate, you’ll find that adding in some more HStr to the mix will increase your DPS more than adding the same amount of HDex. This has been obvious ever since the introduction of Heroics, and for that time where Berserkers could achieve a 100% crit rate once they hit that it was a matter of adding as much HStr to the mix without sacrificing that crit rate. You cannot crit more than once per swing, so that would be a hard cap on that aspect of the gains from HDex. Reach that point, or a point very close to it, and the HStr gains will be better than the dps gains from additional HDex.

    Unless, of course, DBG finds a way to make it so that mobs can resist having something crit, and that needs to be countered by more HDex ...
  13. yepmetoo Augur

    No. Just no.

    First, heroics have ZERO to do with mod3s. Mod3s are spell damage, clairvoyance, etc. They directly affect mod2s (avoidance, melee strikethrough, shielding, dot shielding, etc).

    Second, they do NOT have diminishing returns. They have LINEAR returns.

    Between 400 and 4000 of any +heroic stat the stat gives linear increases in your mod2 caps (and effectively your value since they are one and the same).

    At some point WAY lower (like 25 or something minuscule), you cap the mod2s at the original values they were capped before the revamp (avoidance at 100, shielding at 35%, accuracy at 150, etc).

    The reason for the "no gain at all" between 25 (or whatever) and 400 is based off the values people had at the time heroics were revamped. As we went from PoP to CotF or whatever with the same values. So when they converted mod2s to heroics on gears they tried to do it so you'd be capped back in PoP or so, and stay at the original cap until around that era.

    So between 400 and 4000, i.e., 3600 point spread.

    For example:

    shielding (Hsta), original cap 35%

    New max cap at 4000 hsta, 45%

    400 = 1%
    800 = 2%
    1200 = 3%
    1600 = 4%
    2000 = 5%
    2400 = 6%
    2800 = 7%
    3200 = 8%
    3600 = 9%
    4000 = 10%

    You gain the first interval bonus at 400 and the last at 4000.

    There is no diminishing returns. The mod2s with the larger values (accuracy, avoidance, etc) have smaller intervals in between getting bumps because, they have more value intervals. But it is 100% linear.

    The only bug is hAgi and avoidance, as the devs plugged in the wrong number when it was programmed in and for some reason ignore us when we point it out (they are using 4000 instead of 3600 in the numerator, so it is impossible to hit at 4000 hAgi.

    So yeah, just wrong.
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  14. Fanra Augur

    http://everquest.fanra.info/wiki/Tips_and_Guides#Heroic_statistics
    I can't guarantee this is 100% accurate but I try to update it every time a Developer comments on this.
  15. roth Augur

    I can accept these corrections. I was thinking Accuracy, Combat effects, Strikethrough, etc., merely mislabeled them mod3’s instead of mod2’s. I also had not noticed the linearity on the mods, and it can very easily appear to be diminishing returns, especially when its a lot of Heroic per point of mod. All it takes is not comparing the differences between amounts needed per point of mod2’s.

    The conclusion of my post, however, is still quite valid, in that it is still best to focus on one Heroic (usually HDex for physical classes, though HAgi or HSta for raiding tanks are also valid) rather than aiming for a mix of Heroics. Up until the point where you can’t rally eke out any more crits from all that Dex, anyway.
  16. Poyzen Frawg Augur

    [IMG]
    Ok. I understand why you say they are linear. Thank you for the clarification.
    I don't understand why you list percentages. The values listed in my "Stats" window are not percentages and they are not linear. Please help me understand. Unbuffed Stats page screen shot posted above:
  17. roth Augur

    Accuracy, Avoidance, Combat Effects are not percentages.

    The various Shieldings, Strikethrough, and Stun Resist are percentages.

    DoT Shielding means that that percentage of each dot tick on you isn’t applied. You take the rest as damage.
    Spell Shielding means that that percentage of teh nuke does not hurt you. You take the rest as damage. With 35 Spell Shielding, a 20k nuke only hits for 13k.
    Shielding itself reduces the Damage Bonus component of a hit on you by that percentage.

    That’s why he lists them as percentages - because those stats are.
  18. Dawdle Elder

    Whats the issue here? Hover your mouse over the heroic mods number you are interested in and it'll tell what when the next point will be vs H<Stat> increase. Players should be able to plug in type 5 augments that give them the most benefit. Let them chose and decipher what that should be but there is always a right way and a wrong way.

    Yes you want to stack stats until perhaps you get to a point that stalking that stat is costing you to lose out on something else you might need. There are a lot of variables because there are so many classes and even if you took the classes and grouped them by type such as caster, melee, dps, healer, we are still at a loss to find a common ground because class abilities differ.

    It does get to a point where you won't gain anymore by stacking a stat, meaning you won't make the next point increase no matter how hard you try and then and only then should you be considering what else to boost. If both your primary and secondary stat reach this point where you don't have enough room for augs left to make the stat increase I would consider the benefits on focusing another.

    You also have to consider that a stat isn't just a mod but it also ='s HP, AC, and Mana ect ect. So you weight your options carefully and by paying close attention you can get the most out of what you have available. This is what I call focusing my augs and you can spend quite a bit of time doing this.
    lancelove likes this.
  19. Aurastrider Augur

    Maybe I am going about this the wrong way but here is what I do. For my purposes I have been focusing on HAgil. If my next mod2 upgrade via HAgil is several points away and I get something that will boost HDex or HStam to get my next mod2 from these I will equip the HDex or HStam replacing a HAgil item as long as I don't move down ranks on my HAgil mod2 by replacing this item. I will save this item if its something like an aug knowing it is there in case I get something else that will be an upgrade and combining it with my old item that I shelved would help me reach my next mod2 via HAgil. My primary focus is always on AC and HAgil but I don't want to be a complete **** on my other heroics either.
  20. Bigstomp Augur

    Mix em up. I agree, AC first. Then look at are you going to get a +1 shielding? Take it. The math posted earlier by dzarn says AGI should be king for AC (possibly with STR for shield ac). I don't think the STR is working though or if it is it's too small to parse.

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