Rangers are warriors attuned to the ways of nature, able to call upon the power of the wild to aid them in their fights. Rangers are primarily a melee class, able to wear chain armor and wield many kinds of weapons. Rangers are scouts and hunters, able to track enemies from a great distance and engage them with deadly ranged attacks, but rangers can also fight well in a melee, using two weapons to attack their foes. Rangers have spells drawn from nature. They can increase run speed and add to an ally's armor, health, or ability to attack. In a pinch, they can heal or directly damage enemies with fiery attacks. 1) Rangers are Warriors (Oh?) 2) Rangers can call upon the wild (whatever that means) 3) Rangers are primarily a melee class (lol, what? no...) 4) Rangers use ranged attacks (spells or archery?) 5) Rangers have deadly ranged attacks but also ... use... melee.... (Again, archery or spells as it's kinda important) 6) Rangers can do some buffs and some smaller heals (You got one!) This is off the Everquest site and I just don't feel like this is what the class is, nor would I care to play such a mish mash of contradictory abilities. Do to nerfs I'd hate to be one of those that even suggests I'd quit, and honestly I'd have to wait and see if Rangers are really getting our legs cut off up by the hip area before I would consider a break. By "wait and see" I mean we all know it's already happened, but how other classes end up dictates how useful or un-useful Rangers or any other class would be. I don't hide that I have generally hated my class (Ranger) over the years. We Rangers have had our good times (whenever Archery is broken lolz), but when we're working and not OP people get all jelly and complain, Devs end up either letting us fade into irrelevance or they do as they have recently and nerf us into oblivion. Two huge nerfs back to back when at best Rangers were skimming the OP floor, not ceiling, the floor. After our nerf we're met with Shaman's and Druids being able to out DPS us even after "re balancing" of their dots. /Shakes head~ To me the Devs develop the Ranger class is like Republicans Democrats add to the debt... You want less war so you vote Democrat yet you get more war, you want less welfare so you vote Republican, but you still get more debt due to more war and more welfare... Some rangers want more melee DPS and some want more Archery DPS, yet we get more spell DPS. Neither side asked for more DPS spells so neither side get's what they really want, and if they get something close to what they are after they get nerfed, or lack of upkeep during expansion as we now have seen both examples done to us in a short time (Cheetah and SCR). (sorry about the political analogy as I'm sure some peoples heads will spin out of control lol) Rangers are a caster class at this point, it's dumb... We have to balance melee weapons, Archery weapons and mana for spells... Because we're not considered a caster despite casting more than any other class in EQ history we don't get mana efficiency items or spells... As a ranger I use a tome in my off hand, not a weapon... If i had the cone from OS that gives mana back I'd use that too, no melee weapons on me... Yet we are still "developed" as if we are a melee class! What is going on devs??? I feel like the ranger class is so messed up currently I'm embarrassed to spend my time in my real life playing such a broken class. There seems to be a serious lack of vision by Daybreak on what the Ranger class is, there is the description but the reality is shockingly different. Rangers are not warriors as stated on the website, any melee class can tank as well as us, we simply have taunt... that's what put rangers in the warrior category. We have WS but I believe every melee class has some form of WS, the same ac, the same HP and lives just as long as a ranger would. Yes we have some aa abilities for tanking but we're talking (oh chit!) moments and it last around that long... Also, raiding rangers VS group rangers are not even close to the same, so if you're geared 200k+ HP remember grouping geared rangers still get rolled on trash mobs and thats the majority of rangers out there. Rangers are dominantly a caster class, not a melee or Archery class. If you use melee or Archery and don't nuke as your main forms of DPS, you are not performing at your best, in fact you're doing about 30-40% of your damage capabilities. Currently rangers are going the direction of Group Guardian, Cheetah and Aus buffs for raids... Outside of that we're going down the filler road once again. Not great at anything, generally ok at some things. We are a caster class, we got 2 new dots this expansion meaning you will cast possibly 3 dots that all eat double mana useage if you hit cheetahs.... We can run OOM so fast it hurts the brain considering we get 100% the worst return on mana cost VS actual damage done in the game. I have played for 16 years, Avory was my main from day 1. I still don't know what my place in EQ is because my class changes like no other class in EQ. This should be done by now, no class should be wondering if they have a place in the game just because an expansion or patch happened. The Ranger community gives great ideas, and some horrible ideas too but I just don't feel like devs under Sony or Daybreak listen and really consider these ideas. We're talking about a community of people that play these classes for thousands of hours more then the devs, and yes I believe much of the community should be taken with some level of seriousness. You just can't have a class or classes that are good at most things but great at none, all you create is filler junk classes that could best be replaced by more consistent classes. At this point in RoS I see the main value of my class on raids as being Mass Aus... Not that plenty of other DPS classes don't have wide spread buffs that matter. I have a feeling in months from now I will be logging in to keep a chain aus on raids and that's my place outside of buffing, something 1 ranger can do to a whole raid. I liked EoK, i felt like it was a great direction for EQ... RoS so far for me and my class seems to be every bad thing that has happened to my class prior all wrapped into one giant letdown of an expansion. Is something coming down the line none of us knew about or is my class really just taking another huge beating of DPS and now tankability? Whats goin on Devs, whats the point of my class cuz I got a life to live and if we're going to take giant leaps backwards I don't need to live my life playing a game that leaves me feeling "wtf" all the time. if you devs need help you have hundreds of us here willing to give you free ideas all day and night, some of the ideas are pretty freakin interesting too... more so than more huge mana costing dots to a class that can't afford more mana loss and shouldn't be dotting over classes that get far more efficient mana to damage ratio dots. lol, we as a class just make no sense anymore haha. We get lots of little dumb stuff so an argument can be made that we can't have useful stuff =D Before anyone asks, no you can't have my stuff =) It's all no drop anyways. This is not a giant complaint, it's a giant "wtf is happening to my class, seriously?" If you have issues with your class, try and not vomit on my class but reach out for your own class in a way that could actually help you. Thanks! =)
Not a dev, obviously. But a question- where do you think rangers should be at with regards to raid DPS comparative to other classes, and do you want to obtain that number via melee or archery?
I'd like to see rangers become a utility class like a bard. Basically I'd be good with seeing Rangers DPS being mildly above average on raids... If a rogue/wiz/zerker were generally even and doing 300k DPS over 5 min, rangers should be around 230k DPS over the same time frame. That being said i'd like to see rangers outriders attack/acc, imbued ferocity and brownies (mini WS AA) all go group buffs. I feel this would lift others DPS in this scenario, wiz/rogue/zerkrs DPS if grouped with a ranger to lets say 325k DPS over 5 min (these abilities don't last 5 min). In the end the ranger looks worse on DPS as we still sit at around 230k on raids, but the value in having a ranger in a group either group game or raid is very much worth it. This way Rangers never put out personal numbers that make us OP but rather we make others better around us, like bards do... Only we would still be in that DPS group with bards as we would both be in the "utility ADPS" catagory. I'd like to be a full on Archery class but that's not really important. Some rangers want to be melee and this whole mess exists because Devs can't just pick one. I always felt if gone archery we could make fetching useful by having to make arrows that are used as regents for casting Archery spells that do snares, roots, dots, possible debuffs... Think silenced shot. the things I'm suggesting would/will never happen, and I'm sure plenty of rangers would not support my ideas but I'm not looking to push my agenda of how rangers are/should be built, but rather asking for Devs to clean up our class so our direction is not so spread out. So I'm not personally trying dictate how our class should be re-directed or developed, I mean I could haha.
Avory, I applaud this well thought out and descriptive post. But I believe, unfortunately we won't get an answer from a Dev of 'their' vision of the class. That's if they even have one formulated. Sure we may get some canned answer written from a customer service op-ed but quite frankly I think hell would freeze over first. I know a bunch of us are struggling with this next expansion and quite frankly I am on the fence as I stated previously in other posts if I even want to purchase RoS. I hate what they are doing to the Ranger Class after all the work a lot of us have put into it. I hope they come out with something because if they don't I fear they may not get my money this time around and I may put it toward Pantheon which will be coming out in Pre-Alpha soon.
I'm sure you mean well but I hope the devs ignore most of your suggestions. If you don't like your class play another one or go play another game if you don't like any other classes. No offense intended but the last thing we need is more alterations and changes. Rangers are fine where we are in EOK and hopefully ROS will just add to that with the new levels and AAs.
As I said I doubt any of it would ever come true, it's simply my own version of a way to build the class for both raid and group players that does not OP the class but keeps us very relevant to both settings. I disagree that currently rangers are sitting well in EoK after the SCR nerf, that pretty much brought us right back to a filler class in a single patch. No rangers are gonna get kicked out of a guild but are overall value in groups, raids and even solo was just cut way back. Prior to the nerf Rangers were mid level solid, I can't complain about that... SCR was a multi level huge nerf that effectively put rangers back to where we were at the end of TBM at this point in time. I did parses raid RoS VS raid EoK ranger geared and we hardly make up the ground lost, it's possibly as bad that rangers overall DPS will be less at 110, maxed aa and raid geared than a 105, maxed aa and raid gear ranger at the end of EoK was pre SCR nerf, very very possible. Unless something is in the works I have a feeling Rangers will be *one of* the weakest classes in the game. If you're good with that, cool =D
Placing an artificial DPS threshold any class is not a good idea. All DPS classes (and yes a ranger is a dps hybrid, just like a paladin is a tank hybrid) should have the "potential" to be excellent DPS. Some classes should be easier than others to reach that potential, but ultimately it should come down to the player behind the keyboard if they reach that potential. Once you place a hard cap on the DPS a class can do you limit the player from being exceptional at their class. Hybrid shouldn't mean 'Less than'. We are a hybrid because we draw class inspiration from two other classes, but do we really at this stage in the game? Gone are the days of us being half warrior, half druid, we are our own class now, a hybrid because we use both Endurance and Mana to DPS. As for utility, all classes have utility. The only class that really lacks utility is the berserker, and that can be seen by the amount of effort needed to reach their DPS potential, a r-tarded monkey can DPS effectively as a berserker. Rangers have a bit more utility, but that should make us reaching our DPS potential harder than other classes, not less than other classes. Archery versus Melee. This is a no win argument. One side will always be alienated depending on development. I tend to think we have enough melee classes in the game and each game needs at least one archer class and if you really want to melee there are much better options for melee with better weapon selection than the ranger. Some people would disagree, but no matter what they say or post they won't change my mind, they will always be wrong and I will be right, it is a no win argument Well, I win
I agree with all that you said. =) Problem is, we are not developed as you said you would like Rangers to be. I agree we should viewed as our own class, not some hybrid pulling from 2 classes thus we should be mindlessly weak so that we are not OP. A rogue never stops DPSing to buff me or heal me =) Most of Rangers utility all classes have had for 10 year or more with AA or clickies so being able to cast sow shouldn't mean I can't do great DPS.
Just a quick question Is Innate ranger joke resistance still extended by Sarcasm reinforcement mastery? *Kidding* Skybovv-Test
The Devs will never answer a question like this .. the reason is they don't have an answer for you. its pretty clear they are making this crap up as they go along. Rangers will be whatever the devs decide at that moment, so just shut up and keep sending them your money
I like your posts, Avory, but 5 days before a big expansion release devs are probably up -creek in terms of the workload they have to do and really can't read a 1,400 word post and give a comprehensive answer. Brevity is the soul of wit and a succinct list of changes that good rangers would agree is more likely to be useful to over-tasked designers than an opening novel about the philosophy of a druid/warrior hybrid.
I was going to post something similar to what Doomcasters posted. Just dont think I would of worded it that well and fear my post would of cam of as a semi flame to OP. Not sure if the array of play options on rangers is a ++ or leads to feeling of missing focus to what a player enjoys the most of their ranger. Not sure if I am typing or wording that correctly. Generally trying to say too many forks in the road makes the correct path harder to travel. Only theory based here, on dps, is not the choice of ranged vs meele based largely on ADPS if what is ranger controlled equal? Sure content leads one to favor either one.. just guessing the Adps mod would show the path. Feels like rangers are in a great shape and appears to be fun.
Doomcasters can kindly walk away from Ranger threads with this masterpiece post. After reading the post... I think one word can summarize ranger the best... Hybrid. Rangers can tank, most are just too silly to figure out how. Granted it doesn't compare to a real warrior (nor should it). You're on crack. Rangers can dps, most don't know how although I have seen a few take the time to figure out how and they do pull some nice damage out. Rangers were not even close to OP, yet we were nerfed anyway. Rangers can heal, which isn't an option for too many classes. If your fast cast heal is on cooldown, you couldn't save a Fillet-o-fish sandwich from our "President". Rangers also have option to range dps or melee... Very rarely do I ever see a ranger that knows how to do both as it does take some skill to do both to max effectiveness. What does it matter if you're a dps class that can no longer be competitive? Rangers also have a lot more buffs than some of the other classes. Granted most don't care about movement spells... Also damage shields are virtually negated since people are hitting for hundreds of thousands, as a damage shield still hasn't really broke 1,000 unless it's some short duration, etc. Although rangers still have a few buffs that are meaningful. Damage shields? This alone discredits anything you have to say here. Although ranger isn't best at particularly anything. They are versatile. Snares, roots, heals, buffs, dots, nukes, melee, disciplines, archery, tools to pull, tracking, foraging, etc. So we're Bards now that do nothing as special as them, as often as them. Neat! Yet, I do understand the frustration. Many rangers still haven't figured out how to do good dps. It is possible, but a whole lot don't figure out how is the biggest issue. Ask any member in RA, Rangers have figured out plenty.
This really is Monks all over again. If you don't play a Ranger go away with this kind of crap. You're making yourself out to be a damn fool.
Can't really blame Ptah for that opinion. Every hybrid class has suffered at one point or another due to the "appear to be fun" toolkits. Much of the time they are fun and sometimes Devs get it wrong. From raiding Beta with multiple high end guilds, I think Devs got it wrong with rangers pertaining to where they currently fall in the DPS hierarchy from what I've witnessed. Unfortunately, with way things have gone, I'd be willing to gamble rangers will be brought in line by other classes being hit with nerf bat versus receiving a boost
Oh look a wizard talking about Rangers post SCRM nerf. How novel. I don’t need a single tip from you on how Rangers work, not in one single aspect of the class - but thanks for offering! It’s really easy to minimize another classes issues when you’re at the top of the parse. For well over a decade Rangers have been a DPS class in EQ. We now do nothing extraordinary. I didn’t sign up in ‘99 to be an auspice and fang ADPS and I’m betting every Ranger in EQ will unilaterally say the same. off with your posts.
