Devs: Bers v Wiz - Raw parse data.

Every fight was not burst just like now every fight isn't sustained. However, the 5-10 good parse events for the expansion were all burst. Sustained classes got to look forward to spots 10-20 on the parse for all but 1-2 events. Thats how burst ruled the world.

Just like now every fight isn't sustained. However, the 5-8 best parse events for the expansion are sustained. Burst classes only get to look forward to spots 10-20 on the parse for all but the 1-2 token burst parses in RoF. Thats how sustained is ruling RoF.

So let me see...

1) We're not asking to nerf the sustained classes burst ability. Where did we ask for that? The only time I can think of this being out of whack was necro swift dots, and back then it was mostly the wizards crying foul (with good reason I guess - you were beating them at their own game).

2) If the sustained classes are doing 80-85% burst that rogs can do, then isn't it fair for rogs to want to be 80-85% sustained dps that the sustained classes can do? Fair is fair... that means basically doubling our sustained dps btw as we're that far behind.

3) Burst has never really ruled the world for every expansion. It just happens that the ideal parsable encounters are more often burst than not as they also tend to be the simple raid mechanic ones. That doesn't mean everything is burst as it never has been that way. People get all up-tight about 1 or 2 burst events showing one class being mega powerful when in reality it's the overall event parses that really matter.

4) Not every guild is stacked to the high teeth with burst dps. As such the majority of raiding guilds take longer to kill events than RoI and similar. We cannot balance a guild around one or two guilds that stack burst dps classes as they're the minority. For that reason, even the "burst events" are often long enough to give sustained classes a pretty good shot at coming top.

You can frame all you want, there is no way for me to change you or a few other select melee minds otherwise.

If sustained ruled or even was 50% back then you guys would have been lobbying back then for more more more sustained as the pure dps classes as you call them should rightfully win all dps parses. But you weren't because everything was ok because you enjoyed the spotlight as the favored classes in burst.

In HoT when sustained classes could do 40-50K at the absolute best with support and stars aligned when burst was doing 60-70K on avg and stars aligned 70-85K you guys went ape to right the wrong that this was. Despite 80% of events favoring burst.

You keep trying to justify certain classes being behind because of past expansions.

Is it our fault the devs broke aria and left it broke for 2 years ? No we were doing unintended DPS and they ignored it for 2 years. Stop bringing up 2 years ago. The game is designed for sustained dps now and all classes should be competitive in that category. If you're 85% of my burst I should be 85% of your sustained.

No I am not, no classes should be behind others because of past expansions wrongs. But yes I am saying burst should remain burst and sustained should remain sustained and the two SHOULD NOT blur. I only brough up past expansions because when more events farvored burst songsa, brogett and a few others went ape at the hint of a sustained class being to close to burst in their minds. Yet here they are supporting burst classes keeping what they have and now also being competitive with sustained classes becuase more events are favoring sustained as of late.

Zerkers, rogues and wizards should all compete in burst. Any issues here should be addressed. They should be bad at sustained to the degree that they don't compete or are close to sustaine classes. Lobbying for melee to be sustained should not be addressed. Unless sustained get to burst at your levels or you give up all your burst advantages in return for more sustained. You don't get to keep both because you want to.

Necros, mages and monks (hybrids) should all compete in sustained, with necros coming out on top do to the nature of their ramp time being a penality in any short fight, phase, script whatever. Any issues here should be addressed. They should all be worse off at burst to the degree they don't compete or are to close to burst classes. Again unless burst lose their advantages in burst or sustained get boosts to burst so everyone becomes vanillla equals.

Would be nice to get a dev input on what we should be expecting from our class choices.

/facepalm on this thread...

You completely misunderstand my intentions and exaggerate everything I write, just so you can have someone to rally against. I don't believe rogues should *WIN* on sustained parses, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy with being so low either. We can ask for more without expecting to be top, given there's such a gap that should be pretty easy to achieve too.

In HoT rogues and especially bers could put out some huge targets, but only on like 1 or 2 events for most guilds as those mega parses needed to be sub 1 minute to get the big burns. Hence most of the so called burst events didn't qualify either. I certainly don't recall rog/ber always being top on all fights - we routinely had necro up there too, depending on the event. That's how it should be too (although wiz didn't factor as much, so they needed a boost to burst).

Entirely my point. (And remember Forcallen, when Aria was broken, it was me who was campagning for the fix so I'm not purely out for melee dominance - I'm on the side of balance.)

Here is a recent parse that is a bit more realistic.

Mind you, it is still not completely accurate because the person capturing the data did not include things like dots from necro's or the damage on ranged mobs (Soul Gazer's etc) since he was not in range. Nonetheless, this is a bit more realistic.

[Tue May 14 19:56:32 2013] 'Combined: Xorbb 3 in 1380s, 423968k @307223dps --- ZERKER 38480k @28211dps 9.08&PCT --- Monk 31325k @22899dps 7.39&PCT --- Rogue 30698k @22342dps 7.24&PCT --- Monk 29236k @21608dps 6.9&PCT --- Wiz Jazu 25210k @18564dps 5.95&PCT --- Monk + pets 23769k @17350dps 5.61&PCT --- Wiz 23329k @18028dps 5.5&PCT --- Rogue 21169k @15418dps 4.99&PCT --- Rogue 19397k @15107dps 4.57&PCT --- Monk + pets 16009k @11737dps 3.78&PCT'

While your class may have its concerns and issues (just like all classes do), the sky is not falling.

Looks like Mages need boosts!

lol how about telling us some info about that parse? who had adps, who didnt.... what weapons/focuses people were using...who's parse link is that? if it's the zerker's own parse its not surprising he picked up himself as doing the most damage.


looking past all the missing context for the parse, its really just a bad parse to look at for class comparison purposes... the zerker that topped it has lower sustained than zerkers in VoA.... all those people are clearly missing adps or the parse is flat out inaccurate because it's from someone with weird filters setup or who was out of range for parts of the fight. and how you managed to stretch out Xorbb3 into a 1300+sec parse is baffling as well unless you never do clicks and let him keep his reflective lens buff the entire time?

Yeah, that one is a pretty odd.

If anything it should be used to ask that we get most ADPS support made innate and reduce our dependency on others because no one there is doing as well as they should be able to.

A rogue was doing the parse.

The zerker had bard, shaman and beast support in group.

Wizards had a chanter and druid.... no clue on what group make-ups were for monks and rogues.

When it comes to weapons I have no absolute knowledge of who has what. But am pretty sure they all have at the minimum Tier 2 raid weapons by his time since we were like #8 guild for raid progression serverwide. (Four to five months of farming Tier 2). Some may even have some tier 3 weapons by now.

Typically we have rangers and some monks/bards doing the clicks depending on who is online. Rarely will our guild see rangers near the top on this event because of that.

This is a combined parse for all mobs for the entire event. No clue who did and did not die. Necro dps won't show up in the top 10 due to being a dot class even though we have some that would probably be there. Think we had one mage online for this.

Still not a complete picture... but it still is a lot more accurate than the OP's original parsing methods.

Here is what I parsed for myself: Combined: King Xorbb on 5/14/2013 in 660sec
Total
--- DMG: 29468775 (100%) @ 44650 dps (44650 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 222867 @478dps
Jazu
--- DMG: 29468775 (100%) @ 44650 dps (44650 sdps)Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

thanks for the additional information, but look at your self parse compared to the one you linked before... the rogue caught you at 25mil compared to your actual 29mil. and he had your fight time at 1358sec you have it at 660sec... those kind of discrepancies rule out any sort of valid class to class comparison in that first parse when you have no idea how much damage he missed from each person nor how long they actually fought for.

how do we know, without seeing the zerkers personal parse, how long they fought for? what if he had lower dps than you but managed to get in more fight time and thats how he out damaged you? I'm not saying thats what happened, but its pure speculation to try and base any sort of "balance comparison" based on that first parse.

The total time discrepancy is because the rogue parses everyone and I only parse myself. The only real stat to glean out a parse like this is total damage. You cannot use my self only parse and pick out the dps and then used a combine parse and pick out that dps of the zerker because it won't tell you anything. Total damage for this event... Zerker 38 mil... My total damage 29 mil.

The difference in his parse of me and what I parsed of myself is mostly due to range dps'ing the Soul Gazer type mobs before they reach the raid. (ranged classes are ideal for this). The rogue was nowhere near the Soul Gazers for the most part because wizzies/rangers/necros/mages were trying to kill them before they reached the raid.

Well, to be honest, all that parse proves is there are definitely different ways that guilds do events and different skill levels.

There is alot of movement to and from adds on xorb 3 so this is likely where the rogue lost alot of data, also I thought there were some caster unfriendly mechanics on xorb itself?

Good parse targets in my mind are solo raid bosses, alot of ntov dragons would fit into this category.

In my mind berserkers are in trouble right now. Some things that need to be addressed in priority order:
1. Remove self blind
2. Remove self root
3. Lower the dps LOSS when support classes are absent

If they address these things first we will be Much easier to balance as a class, there is no way we can be compared to others with blind and root as part of our best dps sequence. For no 3 we need something to replace bard, shaman and especially beast lord sustained and short burn buffs, 50-70 percent contribution from classes that may not be present is too much.