[DEVS] A plea to Instance either Ragefire or Lockjaw?

A large percentage of the player base did make noise about instancing, and something did happen. Phinny.

No doubt though I am not 100% sure its exactly what everyone wanted. They have the opportunity to implement instancing WITH boxing, Phinny would take a population hit as would the server that would not have instancing. However if those that claim to want competition really want competition, then perhaps that sever would be supplemented by those who would migrate there.

Alas I dont think those folks really want competition as Darth just said, he would love to have instancing. What he really must want is just a bigger epeen then most.

Darth, I can't sit here and say you are wrong, because too much of what's really going on with the servers is based on assumption.

I'm just saying that I've heard devs say something is not possible and then later all of a sudden we have it.

I do understand what you are suggesting though. The TLPs are bottom up in their design. We cannot have features of a particular expansion until that expansion is added to the TLP. Instancing came in LDoN/PoP, so instancing can not be implemented, without a great deal of bottom up reconstruction i.e. Phini, until that expansion is reached. That all makes sense to me.

However, on the other hand it doesn't make sense at all. The TLPs seemed like they were a Top Down design, not a Bottom Up. I have the ability to select Velious/Luclin character models, but that expansion has not been released. When I log into the character select, I see all the races and classes, but some have been deactivated. During the last TLPs, there was a bug of some kind and few people found themselves in a depopulated Plane of Knowledge. We have some features that were added in much later expansions like Achievements, yet others have been turned off like clicking items in bags. We can utilize Kronos. Our UI includes all aspects of live like the merc tab. So the question is, if there was a mercenary you could buy from the SC store, would it function here and now? My guess would be yes. This all suggests that we have the full client with aspects of that client that have been turned off.

I'm not quite sure why you had to start insulting me. I also don't know you feel the need to justify your inability to comprehend that they can't just add Phinny style instancing to an already established server.

Do you have any idea how the data files for EQ even work? If not then quit arguing what can happen if you make enough fuss. I know exactly how they work. It has been explained to me. It has also been explained to me why they can't just add it.

I have no ulterior motive here. I'm just letting you know that if having instancing is something you want over boxing, you need to re-roll. It's not happened to Ragefire and Lockjaw unless DBG actually finds man hours to build it, code it, or flat file transfer to new servers. And, my understanding is that any of those options would take hundreds of man hours, and could lead to massive amounts of down time, and broken content, just like Phinigel had.

You make it very hard to take whatever you say seriously.

We didn't have broken content particularly - just minor issues besides the Hate instance being completely borked. And all of them took around 2 weeks to get addressed (including a week cooking on Test) once they were back from Xmas break - since the reports of the problems only really started right before they left for Xmas break.

So if you're using that as an example of "wow, that would be awful" it's really not - since there's not another 2 week dev break until next Xmas. It's shocking that things getting noticed as broken right before their longest break don't get fixed until they're back, I know. /rolleyes.

I'm fully expecting something to glitch with Kunark (although maybe not since it was on Test so early, but we'll see) - and if so - I bet it'll be fixed within two weeks again.

The insult is a result of your flip flop, do you want competition or do you want instances? If you wanted competition, why are you not on Rage or on Phinny, you can get both on Phinny! The only thing that makes sense to me is your prefer to be the biggest fish in the smallest pond because in the other ponds (maybe not so much rf anymore though if you moved there, TL might be motivated to move back?), you will be just like the rest of us.

I do not know how eq files work, common sense tells me that while Phinny was a new server, it was more for the fact that there was going to be "true boxing", whatever that is as well as no third party software. I get these zones were designed not to be "raid expedition" instanced, I also get they were not meant to be load balanced either. But absor himself said it took some tweeking to do and lo and behold, we have load balancing on just about every zone.

It is hard for me to buy that they cannot do this, especially with all the later features that are currently in game. I understand it will take man hours and there will be issues (this is eq afterall) however I really do not see how these are actual arguments against not doing it. This has the potential to balance the servers out, instead of the majority being on phinny, some of them will gravitate to the instanced all out box server, while those who want competition and only open world poop socking will gravitate to the server that caters to such, provided that is what they really want.

It really would be win win for everyone and much better chance at longer term subscriptions instead of the massive attrition we saw when people realized what a sh*t show these servers were turning out to be.

Says the guy who posted this...

They change anything they want and don't care what any of us thinks. DBG only wants one thing and that is money.

When it comes to instancing ruins the racing/socking I don't understand that at all. I can see a race at the start of a server to become the number 1 guild, but when that guild is established who wants to compete against them? Has there been any TLP server where the top guild didn't atleast get 90% or more of the raid targets they wanted to take? How many guilds have folded because they didn't get that number 1 spot? So start a server without instancing and when the top guild is established turn on instancing.

I love how the kids who aren't getting their favorite features and ultra-fast XP rates break out the "evil corporation" argument. Obviously the producers and higher-ups at DBG are focused on what drives the bottom line. I don't think anyone will ever argue that. I mean, it's literally their job. However, to suggest that the development team, folks like Roshen, etc. are sitting there fingers tented going "MONEY! Mwahahaha" is just sad. Sure they're probably instructed by higher-ups to make certain changes or are denied time to work on certain projects in the interest of money, but the targeting of the dev team is just stupid.

You know how people, myself included, sympathize with retail employees for dealing with entitled jerk customers? I sympathize with development teams for dealing with entitled jerk customers. A lot of those folks have a passion for this game, and to suggest they're driven solely by money is just a level of entitled spoiled brat on the level with customers treating retail employees like dirt. Get over yourself.

This is fun. So you're saying that it's rational to have gone "I remember how EverQuest was a competitive game that involved racing targets which naturally fostered a top guild on the server that controlled targets. Maybe if I wish upon a star super hard, it won't be that way on RF/LJ". Sounds like a rational point of view.

It seems like that's what the vocal minority unleashing their river of tears on the forums about various topics from XP Rates to lack of instancing on RF/LJ had done. "I remember EQ being like <x>, but maybe if I just shut my eyes and click my heels it will be like <y>. Boy oh boy, <y> would just be swell." and then have gotten enraged when x = x. It was your choice to play. It can now be your choice to stay on that server, restart on Phinigel, or cancel your subscription.

Myself, I saw the TLP servers come out and remembered the pros/cons of the game, decided I didn't want to deal with socking/racing targets, and... didn't come back to EverQuest. When Phinigel came out, I realized it was a ruleset I could accept, and came back to EverQuest. If you game based on wishes and prayers, you're gonna have a bad time.

To be fair Venthos, the DZs on Phinigel actually feel far closer to pre-Luclin EQ than any previous TLP to me - perhaps I was lucky in that my servers were always "mobilization" servers rather than , tomfoolery and GM calling ones - but due to the nature of people not knowing spawn times perfectly they rotated around plenty, sure the top guilds (at least the times I wasn't in the top guild) got more than us there definitely wasn't parity for that - but we'd get our shot on something at least once a month from times aligning - about equivalent to the instance respawn here with the time compression on the server.

Luclin+ stuff started to go south though all over the place (at least on major targets getting poopsocked) but that's a small portion of the whole "pre-instance" timeframe.

So I'd not weigh that as a true "change to the core design of EQ" - it's a kludge vs. a natural distribution that could come with people being willing to compete on fair terms (as happened back in the day) - but it's at least a direct thing to address a change in playstyle that's occurred.

On the other hand, Tulgin's bizarre request doesn't fit like that at all. It doesn't help to recreate anything from how EQ used to be.

I'm not interested in what you thought EQ used to be. I'm interested in improving the game. Go play P99 if you don't like change.

I guess what I mean is that if you look at it purely organically in a timeline fashion, the level of socking that exists today did not exist back "in era" for classic/kunark/velious. I attribute this exclusively to the infancy of the genre and the game. Like you said, as the genre/game matured and people started desiring to min/max and sock, the game evolved into exactly that.

Therefore, expecting an incredibly dense server population (single world environment having to be supplemented by the /pick system to even accommodate group XP volumes) launched over 15 years later to roll back and have the same lack of end-game socking is just weird.

The server I played on was all about mobilization, too. I'm so glad it wasn't a rotation server. But yeah, even in the casual guilds I was in during Kunark/Velious, we got shots at pretty much any target we wanted if we checked avidly enough. Nobody really socked. Raid nights generally went "Go forth and see what's up" with no real tracking of what was in window or not, and hitting whatever was available. That time is long, long gone. For anyone to assume that level of play would exist on a TLP box just seems irrational, and that's the point I was trying to address.

I'm not interested in what you think EQ needs to be. I'm interested in improving the game. Go play WoW if you don't like the game.

Do people claiming that the socking and dps races were a natural part of everquest have any actual experience being in a #1 or #2 guild back in the original day? I hear this thrown around over and over again but frankly just don't buy it. It happened on Fippy and very badly (mage and sk armies) but it wasn't normal before then in any of my experiences. Mobilizing and racing was the norm on Combine. It was the norm on Stromm. It was usually the norm on original servers.

I heard a great description from a friend that's really stuck with me - top guilds on recent TLP servers are basically "roleplaying" the negative stereotypes of top guilds originally. All those old forum posts about the top guilds full of exaggeration and lunacy are now being acted out by people assuming that's how it actually was, when it was nothing like that originally.

Meanwhile, as I keep trying to say, ask yourself very seriously: if they added instances for pre-POP content AND they allowed box armies would it be possible to just sequester yourself in private instances and kill top raid content without either competing with others or coordinating with others? It changes when you hit latter raids, because those raids require class balance and a semblance of coordination, laughable as old EQ sounds here. Raiding AoW? One person with boxes and scripts could potentially do it. A couple pals could easily do it. On Phinny while guilds can and do avoid interacting with others by exclusively raiding instances they are at least, due to no box code, doing so with a community of other interacting human beings. You can't add all three of private instance spawns, content so tank and spank simple it can be easily boxed down, and unrestricted boxing... unless you want to destroy interaction.

they told us when the argument first came up about instancing after it had opened, they could not add it to the server, the load balancing was the special addition they added and had to expand... which took months to tweek, because they realised(after many players pointed it out) just having it in the newbie zones wasn't enough when it would be the same issue everywhere else. instancing and load balancing are similar but not the same, and to add instancing where it didn't exist before requires a code change. they cannot do it on a live/active server with 16 years old spagetti code without a lot of risk... so they made phinny... it's really not hard to understand. do you want to volunteer the time and money for the changes and taking the servers down to do it? oh and you will need to stick around after to tweek and maintain it.

No, the insult is a result of you not understanding what you're talking about. I'm not flip flopping. I can like both competition and instancing. Neither precludes me from liking the other. I may as well talk to my 10 year old about this, he'd have an easier time grasping the concepts I've laid out here.

No see, I do get it. It will require work to be done & there is a track record of DBG saying it can not be done and well, it gets done when enough people make enough noise. There are plenty of people like myself who would like to box using the in game ui which allows for it as opposed to having to buy multiple computers or a frowned upon work around (not really sure if this is being done).

Some of us are tired of your mentality and the folks that follow you and the way they treat others in game. Being able to box and have instances so that we can still play together yet not have to worry about your guild training us like you did in fear the other day is very desirable. I am sure you did not do it on purpose but the whole fact that you were set up and pulling right next to us after we had been there for some time is rather rude. We lost some toons to the train and it did set us back a short bit and you did end up leaving the zone shortly after, which I appreciate.

So why bother with this thread, you have said your peace? Those of us who continue to ask for this to be done, who do not grasp you wisdom and insider knowledge are not hurting anyone besides ourselves, apparently.

Quite frankly, if it takes a server being built from the ground up, it should still be done as it will help retention of the player base, meaning more subs for a longer period of time. Begin the server at the point when RF, LJ & Phinny are all on similar content (very small window here obviously though concessions could be made such as unlocking LJ sooner and perhaps holding Phinny back one time) and allow for transfers. When the dust settles, RF & LJ may need to be merged, Phinny`s player base will most likely take a hit but hey, at the end of the day, you have more happy customers.

If we are going to have 3 tlp`s this round, it would be nice to have a third ruleset from which to choose from. Once again I would add I would like to see this server as one that does not allow the third party key stroke emulation stuff. If this is working as intended on Phinny, it would be a great addition to this server rule set, it will help even the playing field for all involved. If you are going to play the multiple accounts, actually play them!

you really need to share what you are smoking, seriously, so we can see this magical idea actually working... maybe you and tulgin have the same stash?

here's a few realities for you:

* the dev team was slashed when it switched from soe to dgb
* several devs, are devs for more than one game, doing double and triple duty etc. through multiple games they are doing : updates, patches, running dozens of live servers and progression servers, new content(xpacs)... and just a few other trifling things...keeping the lights on, paying the bills, eating, sleeping.
* the code is 17 years old, it's been patched, updated, hotfixed and hotfixed to fix the hotfixes, it's a messy spaghetti of orphan code and defunct codes.
* the guys that make things pretty, are not usually the same ones who write the codes... yes some can do both, but most don't, they are different skill sets. for some reason people like to cite the fluff as a reason for things not getting done, so let's nip that bud right there.
* it takes time and resources to make the changes you're demanding and easier to do on a new server that hasn't been opened than one that is a few months from a year old.
* these servers are linked to live this limits some of the changes that can be made.
* I'm sure I'm missing other stuff...


really? a happy player base? how long do you think they will stick around and wait with the servers down so they can rewrite the code, test the changes... oh and gods forbid anything goes wrong... oh , oops you want them to make parallel rage/lock and transfer everyone... oops you know those are physical transfer and cannot be done by a token right? so they would have to transfer toons one by one and yet again, gods forbid someone's rare drop gets lost...

yeah get right on it!

Why the hell would they hold back Phinny? You can't ask someone to peace out of a thread and then post dangerously boneheaded ideas like this paragraph! I know you don't want to hear this, because you seem agitated at any dissenting view (eg Darth) although perhaps that has personal grudge mixed in... but here goes: you do not know what is good for your own server. Your idea is self destructive. The notion that you would touch Phinny's set-in-stone unlock step as a means to your own end shows how distanced you are from logic.

I may perhaps be wrong about box armies + tlp raid content + instances = poor retention. I could be. What I'm not wrong about is expanding unlock timers = poor retention. It's been repeatedly proven. If you want to sit here in a sassy titled thread for devs (as if!) and beg for instances, go ahead, but keep it to these only debatably bad ideas and leave things like "holding Phinny back" which are inarguably terrible out of it please. Thanks