This makes hardly any sense if you're going to do that the least you can do then is hit SCF hit bonecrawler, then proceed to Alliance (if you have other rangers - if not skip) proceed to cast the first 2 arrow nukes, then cast elemental arrow, then cast Dichotomic Fusillade and spam summer's until the recast timer for focused has refreshed, cast focused again, then click Forceful Rejuvenation. Repeat the steps above until you get where you would cast elemental arrow and instead click volatile and glacial arrow and proceed to spam remaining spells again until the 2 arrow debuffs wear off and then click off SCF
Sorry, but this is wrong. You don't double the %. For the numbers you used, using Anticipated/Foreseen Shots... Previously a twincast anticipated would use 2602 mana. A twincasted Foreseen would use 3124 mana. That's only a 20% increase. At the start of an expansion when you haven't geared up fully in new raid gear, it's going to be tougher on the mana pool for sure. But once you're fully geared up in the new expansion's gear, I'd wager you'll have around a 20% increase to your mana pool which will offset the increased mana usage. That's the same thing that's happened every new expansion.
Can't test this out myself at work, but this I believe is also wrong. DOTs don't cast a second spell when they are twincast since you couldn't get a second dot debuff on mob. It just doubles the damage of the one dot that you already cast. That would mean the GoM proc would cover the twincasted dot meaning zero mana usage. This is I believe how it works for shaman dots and RNG should be the same. I'll double check when I get home.
They fire independently of each other, but at least in the case of robe-wearers, a spell that consumes a GoM proc will not consume extra mana if twincasted: [Thu Feb 01 12:19:20 2018] You begin casting Mind Tempest Rk. III. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Your gift of mana fades. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Combat Dummy Fana cringes in pain. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms hit Combat Dummy Fana for 3640 points of non-melee damage. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Combat Dummy Fana is struck by disease. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms hit Combat Dummy Fana for 7236 points of non-melee damage. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms delivers a critical blast! (7236) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] You deliver a critical blast! (7236) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Combat Dummy Fana is struck by magic. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms hit Combat Dummy Fana for 23976 points of non-melee damage. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms delivers a critical blast! (23976) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] You deliver a critical blast! (23976) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Combat Dummy Fana is struck by Obulus. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] You are soothed by Obulus. You have been healed for 4430 points. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms hit Combat Dummy Fana for 7479 points of non-melee damage. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms delivers a critical blast! (7479) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] You deliver a critical blast! (7479) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Combat Dummy Fana is struck by corruption. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] You twincast Mind Tempest Rk. III. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Combat Dummy Fana cringes in pain. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms hit Combat Dummy Fana for 2430 points of non-melee damage. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms delivers a critical blast! (2430) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] You deliver a critical blast! (2430) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Combat Dummy Fana twitches. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms hit Combat Dummy Fana for 19656 points of non-melee damage. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms delivers a critical blast! (19656) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] You deliver a critical blast! (19656) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Combat Dummy Fana is struck by disease. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] You twincast Vector of Sickness IV. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms hit Combat Dummy Fana for 3640 points of non-melee damage. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Combat Dummy Fana is struck by disease. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms hit Combat Dummy Fana for 7236 points of non-melee damage. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms delivers a critical blast! (7236) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] You deliver a critical blast! (7236) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Combat Dummy Fana is struck by magic. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms hit Combat Dummy Fana for 7479 points of non-melee damage. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms delivers a critical blast! (7479) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] You deliver a critical blast! (7479) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Combat Dummy Fana is struck by corruption. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] You twincast Force of Corruption X. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms hit Combat Dummy Fana for 7479 points of non-melee damage. [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Gotcharms delivers a critical blast! (7479) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] You deliver a critical blast! (7479) [Thu Feb 01 12:19:22 2018] Combat Dummy Fana is struck by corruption. The bolded section is the spell landing the second time once twincasted. I left all the procs in to highlight that, at least in the case of intelligence casters and ITC, the DoT does in fact "cast" twice - it just lands as a single debuff for double base damage. Mana before cast = 173,664 Mana after cast = 174,063 There was a Tome of Obulous proc in there that restored... 399 mana. I got skimped 1 mp. Took screenshots to verify before/after mana, since that goes kinda fast.
The dots are way too much mana is the issue and honestly way too little DPS. I had the level 105 GoM set for doing dots in the past but we "shouldn't" be dotting on raids and while it worked in a group setting you had to do it at the expense of casting another spell, mana free and instant full damage... let me explain. So I went into HS today with my Pally and Ranger and had GoM set with 106 - 110. Sure it pops a lot but you notice that sometimes the fight is almost half over before it starts spamming, so my DoT lands late, meaning I lose not only the full DPS of the dot, but I lose not having to cast another spell at full mana cost with instant damage in it's place. In the end I'm only gaining 5% DPS or so. I watched parse and it's just not adding much if it's adding DPS. Yes it would be nice with Cheetah but now it would really only be useful on a named when everyone is burning or a super low DPS group. I did both DoTs for the record. On Raids the Boss buff bar is full, meaning even if you are allowed to DoT on raids you have to time it not only with GoM but with a open slow or it won't land, so it's worthless. If you wait to cast the dot for GoM you lose DPS. In a group where you are killing fast I doubt we would lose DPS but the DoT will only get 2-3 ticks by the time GoM pops, not to mention if a real good DPS group GoM might not even pop... My issue with Ranger DPS was not with grouping, mana is the main concern for grouping, DPS is low IMO but mana is the main issue for sustained DPS. On Raids mana is a huge concern and all the people saying it's not are full of chit. Basically mana is not an issue if you DON'T do things... If you don't do Cheetah and let it roll on you then yeah you save mana, but you lost massive DPS. If you happen to nuke after a GoM and don't notice while cheetah is rolling you could lose 1/5th of a FULL mana bar casting a DoT where you accidentally miss GoM. The dot's are fun be cause we use a trick to make them useful, the issue is they are broken in the first place due to either mana retention/regen by Rangers or simply that the DoTs are faaaaar to much mana per cast. Again this thread is for other Rangers and Devs, so test it out yourself as your DPS will differ from person to person and if lets just say *I* parse less than you, the attention turns to "haha you're low DPS," or the other way around... You're personal parse will show *you* more than my parse is what I'm saying. Buff up however you like, go to a exp zone, not a test dummy, then see if your Deepz is better with DoTs off GoM or around the same. Then realize on raids it simply won't work like that, you just don't have space for DoTs on a boss and trash dies too fast. A test dummy does not die so in a real group you don't get to see that DoT run for only 2-3 ticks before the mobs dies and you go... wow ... that sucks. I have said it before, if people are happy with the class, good for them, I'm not trying to make them unhappy. I'm unhappy with the class and I have no intention of paying and playing something for much logging if I don't like logging in in the first place. I'd rather give some effort and make my case to Devs about what I see as the issues, if they don't agree and change nothing, fine, they lose a player, oh well. I have no interest in a class that has more restrictions on play style than all classes in EQ combined, and that's not even a "omg exaggerate much!!" comment. Rangers have to be in range for kicks but not too close for Archery. Archery does half damage on mobs that are moving or rooted, in RL that would be awesome for Archery. Rangers have AA's that are now considered some of our most important (cheetah) that we near instantly have to click off ourselves or stop casting other spells... sucks when they are all bound to a single key. Rangers have to cast spells based 100% on GoM for very small returns or those spells are a net massive loss to sustained DPS due to the mana drain. Rangers have to switch between Archery and Melee to get the best benifits of a longer burn. Rangers CC like Bluster/fluster, AE root and even snares are resisted in RoS to the point where its almost better to just do mini burns if you get an add because you lose soooo much DPS spending the whole fight failing to CC. We are the only "tank" class that has the ability to tank decent, not great, once evere what, 15 min? The list really goes on. Now you can love that, you can be super thrilled that you can track and do group invizo... I'm simply not. I'll put my money where my mouth is and just stop paying Daybreak to make the most class in MMO history. No other class changes near as much as Rangers over the years.... none... Next expansion if there is one not one of you can with a strait face say what Rangers will be, hell next patch could change the whole game for us.
Since this is a ranger thread and I don't want to be blamed for getting a class nerfed for posting a parse I'm just putting certain classes down. Sathir 1 [Thu Feb 01 19:58:02 2018] tells dpstriton:2, '/1 Combined: A vengeful sepulcher spirit in 398s, 2126817k @5343761dps --- 1. Druid 161012k @419301dps --- 2. + pets 135803k @353653dps --- 3. + pets 115852k @297819dps --- 4. 93717k @241538dps --- 5. + pets 90714k @232601dps --- 6. 80519k @204882dps --- 7. + pets 76821k @194483dps --- Ranger 70693k @179880dps --- 8. 68609k @174579dps --- 9. + pets 65371k @165915dps --- 10. 64809k @166177dps --- 11. + pets 60807k @153943dps' /GU Combined: A vengeful sepulcher spirit in 376s, 71299k @189624sdps --- Orienn 71299k@189624sdps (189624dps in 376s) I had a good dps group this time so I did pretty well was well out of range of the melee why I probably didn't get picked up on the top 10. I actually had a bard shaman this fight. Sathir 2 isn't a good parse event so I'm not gonna post that one, but I'll post more events when we do them.
Its not the best parse as there is still a lot of moment, some people are out of range off and on of the person collecting parse. Still, light years better than 2 would be lol
I'll eat my words. A GoM proc on a Twincasted Bonecrawler costed me 19-20k mana. A normal bonecrawler was around 7k mana and a GoM proc on a normal bonecrawler is 1 Mana. Something maybe a dev can look into.
That's why I made the thread, so we could all learn more and maybe help if help for the class is needed. I stopped doing the GoM dot trick for a long time, you posted about it and now I prolly won't stop using itin my boxed pally ranger group (Painger!) I got 1 DoT off on the boss tonight during raids... shh don't tell my raid leader =D
Two things confuse me here. 1. If all cheetah does is double mana usage, why is a twincasted using 4-5k more mana than double? 2. Are you saying that your twincasted dot with GOM uses mana where as Gotwar above said that it doesn't for his enchanter? Anyone else able to test this oddity?
I'd like to begin this post with the disclaimer that I'm not a Ranger, and as such I can't test what I'm about to write. I've hesitated to post about this because of that, but at this point I'm fairly confident that I'm correct based on what others have posted. Gift of Mana isn't hard-coded to make a spell cost no mana, it's actually just 100% mana preservation. It uses SPA 132, and has a value of 100. Scarlet Cheetah also uses SPA 132, with a value of -100. You can see this here: [50905/13199] Gift of Mana (110) Classes: CLR/254 DRU/254 SHM/254 NEC/254 WIZ/254 MAG/254 ENC/254 Skill: Melee Target: Self Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes Focusable: No Casting: 0s Duration: 18s (3 ticks) Song, Dispelable: Yes Max Hits: 1 Matching Spells 1: Decrease Spell Mana Cost by 100% (SPA = 132, Base1 = 100, Base2 = 100) 2: Limit Type: Exclude Combat Skills 3: Limit Max Level: 110 (lose 100% per level) 4: Limit Min Mana Cost: 1 Text: You have been granted gift of mana 106 to 110! [49528/49525] Greater Scarlet Cheetah Fang IV Classes: RNG/254 Skill: Melee Endurance: 0, Upkeep: 84 per tick Target: Self Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes Stacking: Scarlet Cheetah Fang 203 Focusable: No Casting: 1s Duration: 2.5m (25 ticks) Song, Dispelable: Yes Max Hits: 120 Matching Spells 1: Increase Spell Mana Cost by 100% (SPA = 132, Base1 = -100, Base2 = -100) 2: Limit Effect: Current HP 3: Limit Effect: Skill Attack 4: Limit Effect: Exclude Twincast Blocker 5: Limit Max Level: 254 (lose 100% per level) 6: Limit Type: Detrimental 7: Increase Chance to Twincast by 100% 8: Limit Effect: Current HP 9: Limit Effect: Skill Attack 10: Limit Effect: Exclude Twincast Blocker 11: Limit Max Level: 254 (lose 100% per level) 12: Limit Type: Detrimental Text: You are consumed by the flames of the Scarlet Cheetah. I can't test this specific SPA, but generally when you have two spells, one having a positive value and one having a negative value of the same SPA in the same slot, the negative value takes precedence. As such, GoM may not reduce the mana cost of spells cast with Scarlet Cheetah. This has nothing to do with Twincasts. I'm very confident that if a Ranger DoT twincasted without Scarlet Cheetah (because of Twincast Aura, for example), it would not use double the mana cost, and would work with GoM. It specifically would not work because of the negative mana preservation focus on Scarlet Cheetah. This is the same reason it more than doubles the mana cost. A -100% mana preservation effect will add 100% of the base mana cost of the spell. That effectively means that you're getting more than double the mana cost. I don't know exactly what mana preservation (and specialization) options are available to rangers, but for an intelligence caster this would effectively be a 150% increase to real mana cost, or potentially more. It's been pointed out in this thread that other classes don't have mana costs associated with their twincast abilities, and that's true. That said, most intelligence casters (wiz, mage, and enc) do have mana cost increases associated with main burn abilities (Frenzied Devastation/Arcane Destruction, Elemental Union, and Calculated Insanity respectively). The devs seem to want burning in general to use more mana, and as such I think it's unlikely for them to completely remove the mana cost associated with Scarlet Cheetah fang. That said, the caster abilities I mentioned actually might provide a way to create a reasonable compromise (along with some other mana return abilities). They use a different SPA to increase mana cost: [51508/5946] Frenzied Devastation XXX Classes: WIZ/254 Skill: Melee Target: Self Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes Focusable: Yes Casting: 0s Duration: 3.4m+ (34 ticks) Song, Dispelable: Yes Max Hits: 55 Matching Spells 1: Increase Chance to Critical Nuke by 51% and Increase Spell Mana Cost v2 by 50% (SPA = 212, Base1 = 51, Base2 = 50) 2: Limit Max Duration: 0s 3: Limit Type: Detrimental 4: Limit Effect: Current HP less than -100 5: Limit Type: Exclude Combat Skills 6: Limit Min Mana Cost: 10 8: Increase Critical Nuke Damage by 85% of Base Damage Text: You feel frenzied devastation come upon you. This SPA specifically raises crit chance as well, but the main point is that it increases mana cost in a different way. Specifically, it is based on the mana cost post mana preservation, meaning that if your DoT costs 7k as a final mana cost and you have a 100% mana cost increase using this effect, it will cost 14k mana total as opposed to 19-20k. It also means that Gift of Mana would reduce the mana cost of your spells correctly (the spell would only cost 1 mana). What I don't know is if this SPA can be used without adding any crit chance. That said, even if devs had to add 1% crit chance to make it work, I don't think that would change the impact of the ability in terms of the DPS it adds significantly. It would make the mana addition more reasonable. To be clear, I'm not saying this is the only change that needs to happen, but I do think it would make Scarlet Cheetah a better ability mechanically and probably make the cost more reasonable. So, in summary: Change Slot 1 of Greater Scarlet Cheetah Fang to SPA 212 and things will be better.
I believe the Trolls would say "Play a Druid if you want to be top tier DPS... Heals and Utility brah~, stop whining and realize you have OP track! better than... druids track.... chit..."
Ok here's Sathir 3 should be a good fight to show how we fair in a long duration fight. My personal parses are going to be higher since its my own and I don't stand in melee. [Sat Feb 03 20:08:14 2018] tells dpstriton:2, '/1 Combined: A vengeful sepulcher spirit in 1022s, 6160098k @6027493dps --- Druid + pets 328684k @325108dps --- 2. + pets 296775k @292102dps --- 3. + pets 262664k @258783dps --- 4. + pets 246485k @242842dps --- 5. 236784k @233055dps --- 6. 228246k @225317dps --- 7. + pets 210388k @207483dps --- 8. + pets 202552k @199362dps --- 9. Enchanter + pets 202327k @200722dps --- 10. + pets 201038k @197872dps --- 11. Enchanter 198713k @197332dps --- 12. + pets 193880k @190827dps' [Sat Feb 03 21:13:49 2018] tells you, '/1 Combined: Venril Sathir in 1022s, 6160098k @6027493dps --- 13. Bard+ pets 192243k @189402dps --- 14. + pets 188854k @186247dps --- 15. 180399k @180399dps --- 16. 178369k @176080dps --- 17. + pets 176752k @174140dps --- 18. 172802k @170081dps --- 19. + pets 169314k @166976dps --- 20. Orienn + pets 166566k @163782dps --- 21. 157237k @155372dps --- 22. + pets 153061k @150947dps --- 23. + pets 150809k @150358dps --- 24. + pets 148048k @146293dps' and my parse was and is higher because it's my own parse, had 303 casts (Had a bard and Sham this event) /GU Combined: Venril Sathir in 971s, 180488k @185879sdps --- Orienn + pets 180488k@185879sdps (185879dps in 971s) Cactus: [Sat Feb 03 20:35:51 2018] tells dpstriton:2, '/1 Combined: A burgeoning succulent in 460s, 2625786k @5708230dps --- 1. + pets 177745k @401231dps --- 2. + pets 159754k @374131dps --- 3. 143659k @317128dps --- 4. 129861k @306276dps --- 5. + pets 128167k @289316dps --- 6. 104889k @238927dps --- 7. + pets 101191k @243248dps --- 8. 99114k @233760dps --- 9. 95218k @207898dps --- 10. + pets 92976k @205699dps --- 11. + pets 88627k @192668dps --- 12. + pets 83189k @188637dps' My personal parse is going to be higher by a bit, 150 casts I lost my bard for this and the next one. /GU Combined: A monstrous succulent in 406s, 56767k @139820sdps --- Orienn + pets 56767k@139820sdps (139820dps in 406s) Skyfire: [Sat Feb 03 21:00:01 2018] tells dpstriton:2, '/1 Combined: A Kar`Zok soldier in 583s, 2918217k @5005517dps --- 1. 145462k @260218dps --- 2. Druid+ pets 142799k @254091dps --- 3. 133925k @237877dps --- 4. + pets 133687k @237034dps --- 5. + pets 124928k @222687dps --- 6. + pets 119611k @206939dps --- 7. + pets 102216k @182528dps --- 8. + pets 100250k @177433dps --- 9. + pets 99056k @174087dps --- 10. + pets 96631k @170726dps --- 11. 96449k @173469dps --- 12. Bard + pets 95216k @167634dps' [Sat Feb 03 21:00:25 2018] tells dpstriton:2, '/1 Combined: A Kar`Zok soldier in 583s, 2918217k @5005517dps --- --- 13. 93990k @165766dps --- 14. 93489k @166350dps --- 16. Enchanter 86153k @153844dps --- 17. + pets 84440k @172327dps --- 18. + pets 82668k @145542dps --- 19. Enchanter 79738k @143931dps --- 20. + pets 75677k @132303dps --- 21. + pets 75265k @134401dps --- 22. + pets 72675k @128174dps --- 23. + pets 71645k @125254dps --- Orienn + pets 68660k @121738dps' and of course my personal parse is going to be higher by a bit, 186 casts. /GU Combined: A Kar`Zok soldier in 506s, 73744k @145739sdps --- Orienn + pets 73744k@145739sdps (145739dps in 506s) I'm not doing Gorowyn because it's too much running around IMO to get good data
