So RoS has been out awhile and despite many concerns from the Rangers that participated in the RoS beta, it seems the class remains plagued with multiple levels of issues. Unbeknown to the Devs Rangers are in fact a primarily caster class, hence our dramatic and almost legendarily bad mana retention. I'd bet rangers cast more spells on a burn raid fight than any class in all of EQ. In groups Rangers will have to med 3x to some other classes single rest, some classes seem to run on Duracells now days and probably fart purple puffs of mana when they think no one is looking. Rangers are not tanks much more so than a rogue or berserker is a tank, mainly we can use a shield and have a few very short duration tanking abilities... their versions of WS simply don't count?... Mage pets tank named in end game content while Rangers tank until WS/Brownies drop. I'd argue Necros pets are more consistent tanks than Rangers in RoS. Mind you I and many I know are RAID geared Rangers VS a pet bought on day one of the expansions release. Oh gawd what it would be like to be grouped geared Ranger competing against mage/BL/necros pets as a tank in a group =( . I hate to break it to you guys, but Devs, our healing has fallen behind, not horribly but I notice it and our guild is not even fully raid looted yet. Rangers have decent utility, in fact I believe we are at or near the bottom for utility when compared to actual utility classes, but it feels decent. For prospected, would you rather have full shaman buffs when grouping or raiding or Aus and GG for almost 2 min... Sorry my epic is not groupable... Bard or a Ranger?... Utility vs utility, decent not great but not horrible even though we're at the bottom. Last to cover is our DPS. So awhile back Rangers got a fairly big DPS nerf, and shortly after that Rangers got another huge nerf that hit both defense and DPS. In my memory, and a good few others I have talked to about our nerfs is the biggest nerf to a single class I/we remember ever seeing. To shift a class from 8-9 out of 10 Top teir DPS *capabilities* to what, a 4 out of 10? while also nerfing Rangers defensive capacities in the same nerf seems like Devs don't even play the Ranger class in any setting at this point in the games development. As it sits, in Triton where I was taken in only shortly after escaping a lifetime in Tunare's "dungeon" after she created me for such purposes... Rangers in my guild, a heavily competitive guild for DPS have made "top 10" only 3x since these nerfs, never top 9 *wink*. Rangers are seeing bards AND enchanters beat them on parse, and not for lack of Rangers trying. I and others mentioned this in beta, where I and others tested the game like we are asked to do. I posted to the beta forums as did a few others Rangers who actually ran tests, in beta, like we are asked and volunteer to do. Never in any thread did we even get a single response from a Dev, not even a generic "Sup-Loozrz!! I'm Outs-Dun't Poutz!! LoLzeeez!!" when addressing the Ranger community in your game. We are now a couple months into RoS and the Ranger class is sitting right where we pointed out it was in beta. Are the devs happy with this build of the Ranger class, is this why we never got a response from the Dev team? As disclaimer I understand that in some guilds out there Rangers are making top parse, but that's irrelevant if others are not pushing their class's DPS. Devs should be able to watch raids, do burns and tests themselves and clearly see where Rangers sits with no bias. I'd love to get Dev feedback because so many of us put the effort in during beta. Is the Ranger class even being looked at or do Rangers sit right where Devs want them? I personally already don't want to log in anymore, and not for lack of things to do. I hate feeling like I'm watching others play the game and win events that maybe would have gone smoother or more quickly if my class were replaced by another... But then they would miss Aus!!! Rangers are currently Aus/GG B****z, and it's super boring. Any feedback from the Ranger community would help too of course, maybe your experience is different than mine and others I have talked to. In closing I feel like I am required to offer a fix over just complaining. Sadly as I said before the class needs to be revamped imo. A quick fix would simply be to boost base Archery and Melee by whatever amount sets Rangers back to competitive on DPS. Our mana is an impossibly frustrating situation... I'd removed the moronically large mana suck dot lines from our class and just dump the lost dps onto Archery/melee's base damage again. I don't understand why Rangers have shifted into a Spell damage dominate class at 60% of our DPS being spells. Rangers get literally no help when it comes to mana retention when compared to other classes, and that's odd because Rangers can burn themselves OOM at record speeds. Like I said, the class needs to be revamped imo because I honestly don't want more buttons to push... =)
I wouldn't say we're near the bottom of utility, we can increase both melee and caster DPS versus some classes being restricted to only 1 type. Our roles still fit as emergency heals or tanks. Desperate is great for its extremely fast cast/high heal, reflexive situational HoT for a little help and convergence is a lifesaver, especially with the new RoS dots that mobs cast. Our tricks for maximum tanking run out quick and have a long refresh but we still have evasion and protection. Imbued fero with a set of non restricted lifetap weapons also buys you another 42 seconds. I can't speak for the raid game but in the group game we can do a lot of handy things to turn a bad situation around in a pinch. Yeah we blow through mana but who doesnt? Beastlords even have mana regeneration capabilities and they are right up there with us in mana problems when played well. While I agree that a boost would be nice, I think we're still in an okay place at the moment. Not super top parsing gods but can still throw down when the time comes.
Fair enough, where do you see rangers sitting compared to other utility classes? I consider utility classes to be classes where their utility effects others, not so much personal utility, much like a Pally/war/SK can DPS they are not accepted as a DPS class. I see Bards/Rangers/Shaman/Druid/Enchanters as more "true" utility classes, some oddly that can out DPS rangers and in the case of Shaman and druids they can by far out DPS while having far more long term helpful utility, enchanters can easily out DPS rangers now too. Often I wonder if people have tested our DPS rather than just "felt" like our DPS seems decent from watching their personal numbers scroll by. I'm not suggesting Rangers have no use, just that in every case we can be replaced by another class that does what we offer better to far better, utility currently being our strongest asset. Tank/Heals/DPS/Utility. Where in that list do Rangers do tops? Most classes fill one or more roles very well, sure they have their own issues despite filling roles, but a Pally/SK have a extremely clear use in the game and has been the same use since the creation of EQ. Rangers have been an off and on DPS (more off than on) and slowly evolved into the dreaded "utility adps" class that literally makes no sense what so ever. Tricks are nice, but even our pulling is sub par in RoS, my bluster/fluster bolts fail so commonly I just get angry when I see and add inc because I know my low DPS will sink like a rock while I spend so much time failing to CC a single mobs due to AE root fails, bluster/fluster fails and so on.
There is no right answer to your question on what role we fill best because we can do everything. We are a hybrid between a warrior and a druid with some other things thrown in their that neither of those classes can do. Compared to the other utility classes that you listed we are only matched by Bards in our ability to offer crit chance increase and crit dmg increase to both melee and casters. Don't forget about Cheetah's ability to throw out 5-25 twincasts for those classes as well. Yes we can be beat in DPS on longer fights by Shamans, Druids and Enchanters but can a Shaman or Druid tank a RoS named without having to be healed once? No. That brings me to our strongest role that no other class has, emergency tanking. There is not one single class out there other than a Ranger that has the chance to take 0% melee damage for longer than a minute. Yes, it is not something that we can reproduce all the time but the Sheltering Thunder proc is one of the greatest tools that we have at our disposal. You mentioned how pulling is sub par in RoS, I agree. We still pull better than most of the other utility classes out DPSing us though (except for chanters, they can wipe up their mistakes but can't heal a group member if they make one). It seems like you know the class very well and all of the things I am saying are not news to you but there are many things Rangers can offer to a group. A lot of people are still trying to swallow the mouthful of DPS nerf we received but that's no reason to discredit the class. Our single target burst is still better than most of the utility classes, we have 2 punt roots with a memblur, an AE root, 14 minute snare, and the ability to go invulnerable while DPSing.
While you seem to understand the class as well, I'm left feeling like you have not put in the time to parse out Rangers compared to other classes. When Rangers have to med repeatedly to a single med needed by almost all other classes that means after say 100 mobs our DPS could very well be 30% of other dps classes output. It's hard to parse mobs you don't hit because you're medding, you have to look at total damage output. Group or raids, a Rangers DPS is so far behind it's laffable to "debate." No parse that holds meaning would support Rangers as competitive, decent or even "meh ok" at DPS compared to other classes, and A LOT of other classes nowdays. This issue is due to 60% of our DPS done through spells mixed with the world's worst mana efficiency. I box a pally, I could EASILY med 4-5 tims before she needs to med a single time... Her role is done, she tanks and holds agro while doing very bad DPS... My job is to DPS but I often have to sit and med after 2-3 mobs due to my Rangers low mana. Both toons are raid geared, the Ranger is better geared due to raid loots from the new expansion and has near max AA vs pallies lower AA. Rangers ability to tank is another challenging argument. Most if not all melee classes get a form of WS, Rangers simply are WILLING to use a shield at the expense of even more DPS loss. Rangers get a proc, sure, even brownies but we are talking such short term "Oh Noz!" tankability it once again makes the class an outcast. No one has ever in the whole history of EQ was like, "let's get a ranger to tank because once every 20 or some min they can tank incredible for a mob or 2 during a burn..." So it's not a role being filled, thus no one can brag about being able to do it, but a Berserker can too, just slightly lesser, or a rogue... or a monk... I get that Rangers can "do' all of these things, in very, extremely limited ways... But I'd never take a ranger over a War/pal/SK/mage/Necro to tank in a long term exp group unless the content was simply a joke, requiring a joke tank. I wouldn't invite a Ranger over a Cleric/Shaman/Druid and even Pally to act as a main healer on a long term exp group or even raids. I wouldn't invite a Ranger into my group over a Mage/Wizzy/Druid/Shaman/Necro/Rogue/Zerker/Monk in my long term exp group unless they were my friends/guildies. Of course given my choice of classes that I get to invite. So I just don't see how being able to slap a heal on someone to "omg saved the day!" or pinch tank or lousy long term DPS is all good because we have "decent" utility that once again is lower quality/useful that other utility classes. If you are happy with the class, great, I'm not telling anyone the shouldn't be. But for me and most those I talk to, the Ranger class is at its lowest point in 18/19 years when compared to what other classes can do. Devs lack any clear vision so Rangers get to do higher DPS for 1 or part of an expansion only to repeatedly be nerfed into the ground for no reasons ever given. I just don't care that Rangers can do equal DPS to a single mob as to other top end DPS classes for approx 10 seconds every 20 min. Yeah, I get it, we can disc then ditch then FRj and do it again... then our moment is over, for a prolonged period of time, not to mention you WILL have to med after while everyone else just keeps racking up total damage.
I would have to med at least 20x times on my ranger before my sk drops below 50% mana lol But there is certainly something very wrong with our class, once we run oom we are stuck autofiring on raids. 1 mage does about as much damage as 2 rangers put together. The only time I can compete with other dps classes with DPS is with staunch recovery and that has such a long cooldown its like once a week basis. Our class definitely needs to be looked at, its borked in its current state.
I do not raid, all of my experience is current group content, group gear other than chase bow and playing with chase/group equipped players. A Ranger can easily sustain 150-200k DPS over 100 mobs in T2 RoS without a Beastlord or Bard to feed mana. That's really not that bad. Could it be better? Yes. I'd love to be averaging 300k over those same 100 mobs. Zerker's are dicho one hit wonders so they are discredited because anyone can click a button and be like "Hey! Sorry, I wanted it do die fast." What seems to be your problem is with Raids. I have no experience with that, I'm sure you are way lower on the parse than DoTers that can hit multiple mobs that an SK or WAR has aggro on and just start stacking up damage before you even target it. I agree that Rangers didn't get a boost like most classes did this expansion but this expansion brought most other classes up to the level that we were at. As for a Ranger as a tank, they are not. We succeed at emergency tanking a named if it's up and there is no tank around or if the tank has discs down and you just want it dead immediately. I would never choose a Ranger to tank for a group, even if you didn't have a slower and were running a proc belt. We still beat other classes that have a WS similar ability to not receive damage, you can go probably 1.5 mins without needing any heals but the named would be dead well before then unless moloing. Two Rangers or a Monk and a Ranger can easily duo most named of current content. Rangers will never main tank that's not our job, we will never main heal that's not our job. We're pullers, DPSers, emergency healers and tanks. We can't have it all and I would rather not sacrifice power in other areas just so someone can be top 5 on a parse in a raid.
That's a fair assessment for grouping rangers. I don't agree with other classes DPS being brought up to Rangers DPS levels as we took to historic sized DPS nerfs just before RoS was released, and a few other classes got bloated DPS increased in that time frame. For the record my goal in no way to to suggest or support any nerfing of any other classes. I can't imagine a Ranger going 100 mobs keeping DPS near other DPS classes without medding many more times than other dps classes.
Being a group ranger is still decent although I've found I need to med like 10x more than any other class in the group. Would really like to see our dps in raids be un nerfed so we can compete once again, now I don't even load my parser on raids its too depressing compared to what everyone else is doing. Guess we are considered adps bots now and even then we don't bring the same utility to the group a bard would. We usually get put in groups with out a bard to help the other classes that also don't have a bard. Would be nice to see an ability that gave us mana back like if jolting kicks gave you a % back that would be really cool, cuz once we are oom we are just autofire bots which by then our dps dramatically decreases with no point of return.
Our tank skills on raids is basically hey look I picked the mob up with WS and then when it fades im dead if I dont fade fast enough or until a golem nukes me then splat. I feel like the healing isn't so bad I've saved some people sometimes with the quicker heal when I can but both of those aspects in group content is decent but in a raid setting its pretty terrible.
Thats a lot of crying If rangers can get any improvements after daybreak aggressively toss’d them in the garbage recently, i would be super surprised. Look around inside the dumpster, i know rogues are in there too because they should be top parse, all the zerker love ❤️ is ridiculous
Current parses have Druids and necros above zerkers on raids, but group stuff we rock it. Having never played a ranger but knowing how our guild places Rangers in raids I have to ask how much having a shaman and bard in your group would change things, as the dps groups in our guild tend to be mostly filled with rogues, monks and Berserkers. Rogues monks and zerkers at the moment seem about on par with each other, though how that would change if I actually had enough zerkers to fire alliance I'm not sure!
One thing I never liked about MMO communities including the EQ community, is when people have legitimate complaints others will often belittle them. I'm an adult, I'm not crying, I pay to play a game where my class at random can be changed and has been changed many times over the years, for the worse. Recently Rangers took some of if not the biggest nerfs I have ever seen in EQ... I have never seen a rogue/zerker/wizzy/mage/necro go from top end DPS to only beating pallies/sk/war and clerics... All classes have legitimate complaints about their class, I have wondered about classes that I never even participated in discussion in regards to that classes directions. Rogues are a class I never understood why they struggled so much to be where they should obviously be on DPS. The points I try and make are it would be like if Devs cut rogues DPS even more, but gave them utility to buff others... Rogues would be like "I would have never played this class if I had known this!!!" That's what Rangers have always been wondering, if devs can't fix the Ranger they just given them more utility because even other players will throw it in their face when discussing Rangers real problems. 17 year ago I had no idea the Ranger class would morph into an ADPS class, I wouldn't have played it. Well, I'd consider playing a ADPS class as a Ranger, but we would have to be a lot better at it than we are now, like A LOT better. I don't see any crying nor do I want to bog down this thread with defending against crying. I would like the class I pay to play to not be ignored after being destroyed. There is simply no reason to do such large and honestly "casual feeling" nerfs. The recent Rangers nerfs seem like a random wipe of 45% of our classes DPS, seems like a huge decision for not spending 10 min running a parse to make sure it's not a massive de-tuning of the class.
I had the luxury of grouping with a Bard and Shaman tonight in Sathir's Tomb. To give you an idea: Xalgoz the Arisen in 49s, 44753k @913326sdps --- #1 Derka + pets 24089k@491604sdps (651043dps in 37s) [53.83%]. Only had the chance to get one Dicho off and was missing some other stuff (poison arrows, dragonmagic, no glyph) It could have easily been much more. On another note we finally beat the OT mission lol.
Bards and Chanters are both better pullers and as for Chanters not healing? They have several different runes at their disposal that can be applied to group members, dot and DD spell guards, glyph spray, runic aura, reactive rune, targetted single rune they can spam you with making you immune to any damage, enchanters are far better healers than Rangers when you consider prevention is better than the cure. On topic, I agree rangers need to be boosted.
The issue is not if Rangers can be a DPS dump for 10-20 seconds, it's about sustaining it. Yes you can Dich while pushing every AA and Dic, then hit FR and do it all again... The problems are you're mana drops like a Ranger tank and after that second dich our DPS simply declines dramatically. To do this again we have to wait around 20 min, to burn 1 named or a few trash mobs. My goal is not in anyway to make Rangers sound worse than they are. Clearly the design of our class has been so poor that it makes it difficult to fix. If you add to anything 1 thing it effects other areas of our DPS, up bow damage and disc damage can easily become an issue... What I'd like to see you do is post a parse (as best yo u can get) of 100 or so mobs with you and a group with other dps in it. Monks, rogues, wizzy, mage, necro not Shaman and druids acting as main healers unless they are DPS in that group. Then get a parse from someone else as yours will probably be higher on your parse and lower on theirs, same for them. Next, drop the DPS and only look at total damage done. I have a feeling you will find you are depressingly far behind. It's always hard to get a correct parse because I dono these people, I don't know how hard they will be trying to make parse over the person doing the testing. The first time you med and they keep going you should realize that soon they will eclipse your total dps output. Devs more than likely understand the problems with the Ranger class, I simple doubt they care as we still have heard nothing from them. Chances are they understand they made one of the stupidest classes in MMO history and the only way to fix it is to cut out all the menial excess bogging the class down. It would take some (not a lot) of serious work backed with a clear goal of what role(s) the ranger class would fill. The Devs are busy writting pages of useless text for more progression that every single player in all of EQ history ends up hating. The dot lines need to be removed because they are not powerful enough to use on raids while also being so mana inefficient you would have to hate yourself to use in groups. Devs should really just pick melee or archery so they don't have to develop entire burns lines for both without making us OP. Utility needs to be recognized as almost useless because near every class gets Utility on the level rangers do, fades, CC, invizo, run speeds, roots, buffs and so on all classes pretty much have access to and have for years now. No one asks me for sow because they already have run speed, people ask for lev because they don't want to click their lev clickie. The list goes on and on because the class was given so many minor near useless things to cover up the bigger problem with the class... the bigger problem being lack of any vision of what the class is, what role(s) it fills and then of course implementing that. Devs even made Cheetah useless for Rangers, you either go OOM NOW or later... but your overall dps and damage output will be the same... all because rangers have the worst mana retention you could imagine.
If I were to quickly and I emphasize quickly restructure the Ranger class to fill a role but not try and sneak in OP abilities it would look something like this. DPS Rangers: 1- Remove the dot lines, reverse Damage Shield built into a dot is another obvious attempt at making Rangers get utility at the cost of DPS while also making the spell worthless. If you must keep this horrible line removed the double mana drain from cheetah and cut the mana cost in half for the spell. 2- Add base damage to archery and Melee. Just spend some time figuring out how much you can add without making the class OP on a burn. Honestly this should be incredibly easy to do. Don't make it a skill or ability that has to be triggered, just strait auto DPS upgrade. 3- As Oreo said before, adding some kind of VERY meaningful mana return on something like our kicks... This requires us to be very close to mobs/named/bosses and manage that space. Moving our toon for positioning can hurt our DPS because we can't cast as well as mobs moving around cause the same issue. Again, the mana return must be meaningful as Rangers are several times behind the average mana using class. I already don't casts dots because as I said above, you either go OOM now or later, but at least if I have mana later I can spot heal if needed. I think that's a simple and good start for a Ranger DPS build. Utility Ranger: 1- In this case our DPS position is fine. 2- Imbued ferocity - Outriders attack - Outriders accuracy - Bulwark of the brownies - Protection of the Spirit Wolf and Outriders evasion all need to be made groupable. This makes us very desirable in groups for raids or normal exp grouping. 3- Following the same idea for mana regen as stated above I'd say make it so that the mana regen given of "Mana kicks" hits the whole group. 4- Run speed increase with an aura that makes others run your same speed. Rangers would be the "other bard". If others have ideas go ahead, plz be respectful of ideas as no one, including myself is saying their ideas are the best or have to happen. I feel like giving ideas is better than just complaining.
Doubt people really want it high on their list, as it’s situational, but when I left we, they had recently given us “carve whistle”. Previous to that, we had “fear animal” which worked outdoors in the old zones where there was massive space without running into adds. I returned a few months ago, and find zero mobs carve whistle works on. For the “Grizzly Adams” of Norath”, our ability to manipulate nature/animals was a defining characteristic. Now, it isn’t just weakened, but non-existent. My mistwalker proc sword pet does almost no damage. I’d kill for a pet, a swarm pet that can be used frequently without a long reuse time. My extend swarm is close to maxed, but to drop 30 or so AA, to extend it a single second is a joke. 1 second?!? Yea, we’re not a pet class. We’re beadtlords with less utility and no pet. Hook a nature loving ranger up with one of our defining characteristics, the ability to manipulate nature
Not to dis BL but that was one of the issues with BL and even Zerkers is that it "took" from things that cold have been used for other classes. EQ didn't need another high DPS like Zerks, they could have made a existing class fill that role. BL on the other hand really crated problems due to trying to keep another hybrid class useful but not OP, like rangers BL have struggled over the years, less but that my opinion and it's not a race to see who is worse. Rangers "manipulation" of nature is in name only. Protection of the wolf, Brownies, summers, the useless horribly done dot lines are "bee's". We don't actually summon a pet that tanks for us for a short duration we basically get a slight defensive disc that pops a wolf next to us but does nothing. Our dot could be named rotten potatoes as it really only dilutes our class by crossing us over into shaman/necro/druid dot territory nothing more. Some people really like being bad at everything but able to do it all... just badly... That's the current Ranger class, a really really sucky "jack of all" but not even mediocre at any.
Your so absolutely self hating if your a ranger, i tend to disagree more.....the more i read. Are you a beastlord?
