deciding tank and duo

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Cylar, Oct 13, 2018.

  1. Cylar New Member

    Returned recently
    I currently have 105 SK and a 105 necro on 1 account. Other account I have 103 bst, and 100 paladin. I am deciding between the the SK, BST duo vs the Pally Necro duo. Someone else posted recently the pally/necro duo was pretty strong.
    I am much better currently with the Sk, as it use to be my main character. The Pally is a new heroic character.
    Any thoughts on the pros and cons of each?

    Side note whats the best way to deal with the new loot systems, is there a way to auto loot?

  2. Bigfan Augur

    Sk/bst is a great combo, if done correctly more dps by far than pal/necro.
  3. Maedhros High King

    I wish I understood why this Pally/Necro crap keeps getting brought up.
    It is not a good duo. No way, no how.
    Paladin/Bard is hands down, no questions asked the best duo.
    Number two would possibly be Paladin/Shammy.
    Paladin/beast could be solid.

    The secret to an effective duo is that the paladin needs to get the kill shots to trigger Blessing of the Faithful. Once you figure that out, anything that steals killshots is a bad idea.
  4. shiftie Augur

    Have you ever boxed paladin/necro?
  5. Took2summmit Elder

    Does your opinion matter at all on what the duo team is doing? If killing lbs/blues as fast as possible for AAs sure bard is better, but if pushing and killing the hardest named you can with the duo, I cant really see how a pal/bard could kill a tough named better than a pal/nec but would love to be told otherwise.
  6. Maedhros High King

    Hell no, because I know it would be a terrible mix. I have played a paladin since 2000 and my very first alt - necro was made in 2001. Its almost always a decision people make because of turn undead and paladin slays which as you know, slays are highly streaky. The loss in DPS of the necro to turn a mob undead is high, for very unreliable return on the slays.
    I guess that when the OP is asking for opinions and I have been playing all 3 toons in question, Pal, nec and bard (which I started around 2003)for 15-18 years that I think my opinion carries some weight.
    What does your opinion bring to the table Mr unknown class new member to the forums?
    If you can't possible imagine how a pal/bard could kill better/faster than a pal/necro then maybe sit this one out?

    Here is a pro tip. Any time you want to test the efficacy of a boxed duo or trio set up, invite one of your friends of the classes you're interested in to group with you. Find out how they work synergistically when no toon is being boxed, and then assume that boxing will be far worse.

    Necro requires CONSTANT attention to be worth a damn at dps, and if you're doing any good at it then you're stealing kill shots from the paladin which is a fail.
    Bard requires almost no attention to run and is almost certainly equal dps if not better than a boxed necro and can also turn off attack to not steal killshots from the paladin. Necro can't turn off dots!.
    The adps and mana regen a bard brings to the paladin is far greater returns than anything you gain at all from the necro.
  7. shiftie Augur

    I have boxed pal/necro and it was quite proficient. You’re making a very obvious mistake in your assertions. It is quite possible he is maining the necro. I started the necro as one of a few alternatives to my main pal/bard combo. When making your assertions remember you are in raid gear. Group paladins need more dps help the necro fills that roll better than a bard can augment the paladin.
  8. Took2summmit Elder

    Everything you just said completely avoided the question I just asked. I very humbly asked if you think a bard pal can kill current content nameds better than pal/nec.You are saying anything that can kill a mob instead of the paladin is bad so that means no dps mercs either. You're basically saying a pal with blessing of the faithful is better dps than 2 mercs and a necro and I'm just asking if that's true. I'll ask again 1 more time since all you've done is try to belittle and make yourself feel good. Do you truly believe a pal/bard with no dps mercs can kill more ph/nameds in a current content camp than a pal/nec with 2 dps mercs. I'm not arguing for 1 second that a pal/bard with no mercs can get AA quicker burning thru a ton of mobs, I think that's obvious. But my question is can a pal/necro do better at clearing hard nameds than a pal/bard. Simple as that. I should also note that my pal/necro with 2 dps mercs my pal has decent uptime on blessing of the faithful, thanks to finishing blow.
  9. Tucoh Augur

    What kind of DPS do you get against RoS named mobs and what kind of gear does your bard/pal duo have?
  10. Maedhros High King

    I think you're going on an assumption that on a long fight a necro should be able to overtake the dps and adps the bard provides? I suppose there are too many factors to say unequivocally. Is the mob undead? Does it have anti-melee type of mechanics, or anti-caster ones?
    If you can see that it is definitely better to duo a pal/bard in all group content except for a handful of random named mobs that fall into a niche where the necro can pull out ahead of what the bard brings, then thats a pretty bad reason to justify the necro.
    I was talking about the recent trend on the forums about people asking for advice with pal/necro boxes with the best necro I know last night. He was pretty surprised to hear it too. A few years ago before they nerfed necro quick dots it might have made sense. Our conclusion was if he and I were duoing in Sathir Tomb for a 30 minute Lesson burn, where most of the mobs are undead but then you have the golems to deal with where the necro could really shine, we figured he could at best break even with the kill rate compared to if I was duoing with one of my bard friends who is very talented.
    To be clear, it would take an elite level necro, not being boxed, to maybe equal an elite level bard duoing and its iffy.
    Factor in that a boxed bard does not lose anywhere near as much of their potential as a boxed necro - and it is lopsided in favor of the pal/bard duo.

    I love necro's. I have a blast soloing mine or playing it on raids, but I think its fair that almost any necro would say they really struggle in groups; even in 2 person groups.
  11. Maedhros High King

    I assume you're asking because you are going to try to argue that because me and my bard are raid geared, that does not apply to a level 85 heroic toon.
    It has nothing to do with the gear. What makes a bard a far better box option than a necro is the synergy that exists between the classes abilities, and their individual strengths and weaknesses.

    A bard is capable of dramatically boosting a paladin, a necro is not.
    Turn undead is a cute trick, but it is not something that suddenly propels pal/necro box into some kind of insane dps machine. Slay undead is too streaky and it is passive. Turn undead is a short window that you might see a slay or two here and there, or nothing.

    To answer your question directly, how much dps does my paladin/bard do against ROS named? Again, is it undead, is it melee friendly?
    Do I have a parse that encompasses every named in the expansion when I was only duoing my bard? Of course not.

    You should be able to see my paladins magelo link in my signature.
    here is my bard:

    here is my necro:
  12. shiftie Augur

    What is your combined dps
    It matters that you are in raid gear because I bet most group paladins don’t tank with a 2her, hell if they equip a wurmslayer it is 1/3 the dps. Bard can augment that all he wants. I’d put money on the necro doing more combined dps than the bard and the paladin. Scorched bones is a neat trick and would basically be used long enough to slow and crippple a live mob - if used at all.

    The net gain of the necro is going to outpace the Adps/dps of the bard. You can go ahead and concede that everything is about how well your paladin does and that makes you feel better overall or that you just enjoy the bard more.
  13. Dreadmore Augur

    Maedhros, I can see that this thread has gotten you really worked up and defensive, but if I may just answer your initial question:

    ... it's because that's what OP has on his non-paladin account that isn't also a tank.
  14. Maedhros High King

    Well that is a good point. A well geared paladin will be able to 2hand tank while a poorly geared one could not. I wish i had the time to put one a full suit of conflagrant gear and do parsing. Would certainly be interesting to see.
    As far as the necro goes, so far we have talked much more about the paladin.
    Realistically, what are boxed necro's able to apply to a mob before it dies, and how much dps is even realistic?
    Are we talking about keeping the three stackable short duration dots, and then just nuking with Blood and Bones, maybe throwing the pet and some skeleton army?
    Are we talking about getting 12 or 13 normal duration dots on? Is that even possible in group content? If so, are we really just talking about someone playing a necro, while using a paladin as their pet?
  15. Seldom Augur

    If you’re much better and more experienced as a Shadowknight, I’d start with focusing on that as the focal point. Beastlord wouldn’t be a bad complimentary piece at all but personally I’d probably reconsider. Both SK and BL are highly spammy classes and in most cases should always be casting among various other things. You can get a ton out of say a bard even while paying limited attention to the toon which has already been pointed out.

    Regarding Paladin+Necro, I wouldn’t exactly rank it up there as a “strong” duo but it definitely will be able to get stuff done. I’d be much quicker to go with a Wizard personally though caster DPS wise, especially if you have no intention of raiding. Convenience of ports, being able to switch targets and not take nearly as many kill shots from the Paladin and being able to pay less attention while still getting a relatively good return being among some of the top reasons.

    If it’s just Shadowknight+Beastlord or Paladin+Necro I’d go with option #1 no problem though. Especially considering your prior experience with the SK

    Regarding the new loot system, yes, things are now auto lootable and you will greatly enjoy the new system once you get the hang of it. One of the best quality of play improvements of recent years hands down
  16. Filter Augur

    I used to main my warrior for years (raiding and grouping so well geared during that time) and I had a nec box. The group content it worked great because I wasn't melting the mobs with dps. The nec would just load up the mobs with dots, war did his thing and reapplied dots/spam pets or what have you. There is no way a pali/bard duo would out parse the pali/nec....just not happening. I've done so many different types of boxing over the years that I just can't see it. The pali/bard duo would boost the dps of the pali by roughly 30% over time (not bursting) and the bard dps is atrocious. The pali/nec could really shine because how slow the pali dps' and nec can hit a macro to apply some dots so it's not as labor intensive. I'm not being rude here but I see flaws in reasoning so I decided to post.

    Can't comment on the pali/bst option.
  17. Brohg Augur

    I think your feelings about tank, necro, and bard relative dps are off the mark, Filter. The model you describe for tackling group content with time for loading up dots via macro is not how most play.
  18. Filter Augur

    Bro, I'm just expressing my experience not the end all. Everyone can have a different result because they have a better PC setup, software for boxing, better at boxing, etc... Results may vary but I've played my war/nec for years with great results. The macro is just an option for targeting, pet attack, snare and cast swarm pet. Then jump into the casting of dots after agro lock.
    Bard is pretty simple comparatively speaking for work related. I use my zerker and bard together frequently and I average a 40% boost in adps and 10% dps from bard. The results would be a tad less for the war (30%) I would assume. These are my parsing results and I'm not doing anything sexy or difficult just burning a lesson in FM. Again I'm not an expert on maximizing my dps with boxing but I do ok.

    Lets say that on the average mob the pali dps is 90K dps (not raid geared and it's a guess based on a parse I had from a pick up group). A nec would do over 100K himself on a mob. Roughly 200K dps.

    Lets use the same pali dps of 90K and bard of 30K and adps boost to the pali increases to 120K. Total dps is 150K.

    Now these are just numbers that I have seen from PU groups so results will vary. We're talking about a duo so the mobs arent dying fast so nec dots are relevant. Nec's aren't great for fast dps groups as we all know.

    Heck, I haven't played my bard and war together since I moved the war onto the bard account so I might be smoking crack!!!!!! That's been 3 years or so if my memory serves me well. I am very curious as to what others say about these results because I really enjoy parsing my different toons together.
    No animosity Brohg from an ex guildie here :)
  19. Tucoh Augur

    I asked because I have no idea what kind of damage a bard-boosted pal puts out and was genuinely curious since you seemed really confident it was a stellar combination. If you had a parse handy of an undead and a non-undead name I'd be interested to see what kind of numbers they are, if not it's ok, don't stress too much, bud.
  20. Maedhros High King

    I think there has been a bit of blur on the concept of box vs duo in this thread. The OP referred to duo-ing his pal/necro when in fact he should have been saying box.

    If a paladin and a good necro buddy of his or hers go out and DUO content, sure I could see that being a fairly competitive duo combination. You would see a lot of KS by the necro via dots, nukes, pet and swarm pets, so that would hurt the paladin dps, but the necro would be doing fairly well to make up for it.

    But there is no way I can imagine, where a BOXED necro is going to come anywhere near what you're gaining from a real one. No hotkeys are going to be able to effectively and efficiently run through the necro dots, unless your spending a considerable amount of attention to the necro (at the loss of attention to the paladin) to come anywhere near what a real necro is capable of. A truly well played necro is one of, if not the very most complicated classes to play in this game and a boxed necro is what I would consider to be one of the least effective toons to box in the game, period. Even IS-boxer would suffer greatly from a live toon to a boxed toon.

    On the other hand, a great bard is obviously bringing more to the table than a boxed one, but with all due respect to great bards, there is really no other class in the game that brings as much of their unboxed effectiveness to the table as a bard box can. Theres pretty much no contest.

    Tucoh I will go throw down some time with my paladin in Lceanium with and without my bard box and post my findings.