Dbg, would this fix all the charm exploits?

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Greensealilly, May 15, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Lisfin Journeyman

    I did.

    Nothing they could do? The enc/mage have to time the spells almost perfectly for the trick to work, why not get another charm class and just charm the mob yourself when you see the enchanter that is "known" to be doing it.

    That would mess up the charm and coth and just cause the enchanter to be coth'd away...wow I guess there is something you can do, and its not unstoppable if the person is known to be doing it...

    See I can make up rare instances that counter your rare instances. Should we change the game based on a enc/mage timing their spells correctly to steal the once every 3 day spawn because people cant act in a way to counter it...


    I'm sure the chanter/mage combo got every single spawn during this time...


    So did players KSing you outright without charm/gate/coth...and guilds bringing 2-3 groups to KS your key camp *cough FG*. Its part of the game...

    So you were fighting Quillmane and took you so long to kill it that a bard was able to track the mob down and run to it, cast enough debuffs on it to prevent dispel and charm it, THAN run far enough away to cause it to warp to him (600+ range) and you lost the kill.

    Maybe you are just taking to long to secure your kills and its not the charm/gate combo that is the cause...

    Like I said before, how many times have you had a mob below 50% to "claim" it as your mob, only to have a charm/gate/coth combo "steal" it from you...

    You were implying it by saying...


    No your not required to run a wizard because of pathing. You are required because of DPS racing.

    Also YOU should because it seems you are taking so long to kill mobs that other people have time to come and "steal" them from you. Maybe if you had a wiz that could take 10 seconds to finish off the mob with 2 nukes instead of beating on it for mins with a melee, you wouldn't be on here complaining.

    Sounds like you have the same exact problem as my cleric, low DPS...


    You cant say what they did or didn't intend with the change. All we know is they changed it to warp the pets to the owner, and its doing exactly that. Call it a exploit or a fix, either way it seems it was intentional because its still in the game after this long...

    So you should spend more time being prepared to counter it, instead of crying about one or two mobs you lost. But by the sounds of it, charm/gate wasn't the main issue, its your DPS and you giving to much time for other people to find you and KS your mob.

    I'm starting to think you are just trolling now, because you are trying to spin and take everything people are telling you out of context, and create the one rare case where charm can be used to grief. Every class has tools they can use to grief people, should we just remove all spells, because they can be used by the very few trolls in unintended ways?
  2. Hadesborne Augur

    THEY DID IDIOT! jesus, it's like I am taking crazy pills!

    It was commonly known among the high level, high playstyle people, that this was the case. And as such, we just resorted to bringing 40+ friends to force the mob to spawn a different way as entire raids were done in by this method. It's just crazy that this had to be done to combat an exploit.

    I never had an issue with that...AT ALL! The problem lies in the exploitation of pathing mechanics in an unintended fashion.

    None of this solves Charm/coth or charm/res exploits.

    I actually can, because I was there and read the patch notes on test AND on live. This was done in 2012, in EQ and in EQ2.

    The amount of time an exploit remains in game has no bearing on whether or not it was "intended". The fix was put in as a work around because Mercs were pathing eratically and were in some areas unable to reach their masters. This fix to have them leash/warp at a certain distance and was then applied secondarily to pets. Nowhere in the patch notes did they say, "We have adjusted pathing to allow enchanter's charm pets to warp to them and thereby provide a means for them to steal mobs at their leisure." It is a clear side effect of a fix to mercs and to pets secondarliy. If you were playing at that time, you would know this.

    There is no reasonable counter to a well executed charm/coth exploit.


    I don't know how many times i have to tell you this. I have no problem with someone out dpsing me on a rare mob. It's been a cornerstone of this game since SoE stopped policing DPS racing way back then. But, when a player LEADS with a known exploit to avoid the DPS race and bypass the fair fight, that is where I have issue.

    No I am trying to point out that you have little to no experience with this situation and therefore should not be arguing the merits of a fix that really you know nothing about.

    Argument By Generalization. Stop, just stop.
  3. Lisfin Journeyman





    Maybe if you had better reading skills, or read the entire sentence you would understand.

    But, keep taking my quotes out of context...again... like everything else I have said.
    Why not quote my whole sentence? Honestly... why do you just cherry pick half the sentence and ignore the rest of it even tho its the relevant part of the sentence?

    I said...

    Charm the mob if you see a enc/mage combo that is known to "steal" mobs from you. How can they charm the mob and coth if its already charmed. You will mess up the charm/coth that takes almost perfect timing to make it work effectively.


    Why do you keep repeating "high level"... and "high play style"...I bet more than 80% of the server is "high level" and doing "high play style" stuff.

    Its not hard to level a character up anymore and join a guild to do instanced content...but i'm sure you will take this out of context and mention something about the stuff that isn't instanced...

    You than complain about VT keys being stolen but never had a group KS you when camping them. This clearly shows you have never been to VT in era. FG is such a cluster every time, you clearly have never done it.

    Please tell me what VT key mobs were stolen using charm/coth/gate.All of the rare mobs for VT keys are not charmable in era...but you wouldn't know that because you seem to have never done them.

    But keep making stuff up, and once again, quote half of my sentence and miss the entire context of it. You are not fooling anyone, you clearly are not a "high level" player...
  4. Hadesborne Augur

    Requiring other classes to "play a chanter or a charm class" in order to counter an exploit seems just stupid. Hey everyone, let's all just play chanters, because screw the rest of the classes. They aren't needed anyways. Did you listen to yourself when you typed that message?

    Again requiring a raid to show up to do group/solo content because a chanter/mage combo will show up and exploit steal your triggered spawn seems again a bit crazy. You keep stating all these work arounds that don't actually address the point.

    I was in the top guild on my server back when Luclin came out so yeah I was in VT in era, and again on Phinny, in era. I soloed the FG VT piece both on live and on Phinny with my necro. It was crazy at times, sure. There were trains and all kinds of greifing and KSing. But I still got it done solo. In fact in Phinny the grey and maiden's eye were some of the biggest grief fests where the charm/gate/coth/res tactics were used.

    See, now you are just making stuff up. IF you knew what you were talking about, then you would know that the maiden's eye rare VT droppers were charmable. The Sun revenants in the grey were charmable. The skellies in SSRA basement were ALL charmeable. The VT droppers in Scarlet desert were charmeable. Some of the VT piece droppers in the deep were charmeable. The Dawnshroud peaks piece droppers were charmeable. The acrylia cavern mobs were charmeable. The SSeru mobs were charmable. So by saying "None of the rare piece droppers were charmeable" are you referring to the FG mobs, or the Akheva mobs? Did I have my VT piece dropper named charm/CoTH'd on Phinny? Yes, more than once, enough to make me upset again that this exploit had not been fixed when it had been abused in Classic, Kunark, and Velious. And it is still being abused on Mangler, now.

    Also, I read your ENTIRE post. I quote part of your message because I only need to respond to the point you are making. I don't need to include your BS reasoning that is attempting to backup your point in my quote.
  5. Hadesborne Augur

    It is simply to point out that the enchanters, bards, or necros (though I don't know any necros that would bother with this tactic), that employ the charm+gate/coth/res exploit, know what they are doing. They KNOW how players will attempt to counter their tactics and are preparred for it. To assume that they just "stumbled" across this method is naive at best.
  6. Lisfin Journeyman

    Once again missing the point of the paragraph and cherry picking a small section of it to try and "dispute"...

    My point is, 80% of people are "high level" players now days, you are nothing special.


    You seem very bad at understanding what you read. I said there is no RARE mobs that can be charmed for VT key parts. You were saying people steal your VT key mobs with charm/gate. So did they do this to every single trash mob you were killing hoping it might have a rare key part?
    I doubt it, stop making things up...

    Its faster just to kill the mobs, why charm/gate? Especially if you are killing solo, they could just out DPS you with charmed pet and mage... Most the VT key parts are random drops from trash mobs, you should know this is you have done it before...

    So I say once again, "None of the RARE named piece droppers were charmeable"...its still true.

    Lets look at your list of mobs you say are charmable and drop VT parts...

    The Sun revenants = Random drop, not named or rare...
    The skellies in SSRA = Random drop, not named or rare...
    The VT droppers in Scarlet desert = Random drop, not named or rare...
    Some of the VT piece droppers in the deep = Random drop, not named or rare...
    The Dawnshroud peaks piece droppers = Random drop, not named or rare...
    The acrylia cavern mobs = Random drop, not named or rare...
    The SSeru mobs = Random drop, not named or rare...
    the Akheva mobs = Random drop, not named or rare...
    FG mobs = Random drop, not named or rare...also NOT charmable...

    The only mobs you would be able to "steal" for the VT key is ME named mobs, and they are too high to charm in era. Otherwise you are just stealing trash mobs in hopes they drop a key part, that is rare. Seems like a lot of work to charm/gate every single trash mob in hopes of a rare drop.

    Like I said before, keep making up stuff, I am sure some people might believe you, but you clearly are not a "high level" player...
  7. Hadesborne Augur

    This was done in maiden's eye on the named mobs and on the Sun Revenants around the lake in the Grey constantly. Like I stated.

    The RARE mobs that drop shards in Maiden's eye are all charmeable (as I previouosly stated), AND they aren't too high to charm in era. I guess I need to spell it out for you.

    Dictate = charm up to lvl 58

    A goraga Seer(rare mob) = lvl 54
    A goraga Prophet(rare mob) = lvl 57
    A goraga Forager(rare mob) = lvl 55
    A goraga Savant(rare mob) = lvl 58
    A goranga Battlemaster(rare mob) = lvl 55

    These were stolen this way on Phinny quite alot. But, again if you had any experience, you would know this.

    But you don't seem to understand, sure they COULD, but they don't. They roll up charm+gate/coth and it's gone They employ this exploit as a first choice. Clearly you need to actually play at a high skill level before you come spouting about what was, or can be done, OR at least do some homework. You are embarrassing yourself.
  8. Lisfin Journeyman

    Ah yes, dictate, the 5 min reuse charm that lasts 8 ticks. I forgot encs had that spell. Your right, 1 part of the key quest could be "stolen" using charm, the other 9 you mention is unfeasible to do so...

    Charm/gate/coth/res is such a exploit, I don't know how I couldn't see that before, until you pointed out the 3 or 4 mobs that can be "stolen" from people. We need to fix this right now! This is such a huge problem, it probably happens a couple times a week to every person.

    People are exploiting every time their pet warps to them! We need a fix for this, so game breaking!

    /s
  9. Hadesborne Augur

    Dude, you still fail to see that it can be every named in the game. Your complete lack of vision and experience is shown in your unwillingness to understand this simple point.

    Again, argument by generalization. Stop with the logical fallacies.


    Let's looks back on the discussions shall we.

    I showed that this exploit came about because of changes made to both pathing AND mem wipe range in order to fix other things in the game. You, had no actual argument against these facts.

    I showed that this can be done to almost any named in the game (HS named and certain raid and charm immune named withstanding). You had no actual argument stating contradicting facts.

    I showed that this tacic was being used enough become a problem (simply because other people were shown to be affected by it as well, standard reasoning). You have no experience with this and therefore assume it isn't being done.

    I showed that this exploit bypasses the normal DPS race that is now an integral part of the game. You danced around the point and ultimately failed in your counterargument.

    Please understand, that I actually think that YOU are the one performing this exploit. Some of the other's that have posted, I am quite sure they have been and will continue to utilize this exploit until it is fixed. I am actually wondering what your motive for attempting to argue the counterstance. If you are simply upset that DBG resources would be used to fix this, then that is a wishy washy defense at best. To have DBG resources put forth to fix ANY part of the game that is broken is a win. To assume that they will not perform fixes and make amazing overhalls that you wre looking for is futile. Hell, I know, because I have been waiting for the Necro spell revamp (that was promised) for over 3 years. At this point, I just want them to fix mechanics that are being actively exploited first.
  10. Lisfin Journeyman

    All you have shown is you making mountains out of mole hills...

    It's also kinda hard to use this exploit when you are a cleric main.

    You are perfectly fine with people taking your kills with DPS, but when they take kills using a extreamly rare charm tactic, you come on here and complain. Try playing a cleric and tell me if DPS racing is any more fair... it's not. From the sounds of it, a wiz would of stole your kills just as easy, and charm has nothing to do with it...

    And again if it was a exploit they would of fixed it years ago don't you think? So clearly its by design...

    Maybe the people on here just accept the game isn't fair, just like life.
  11. Hadesborne Augur

    This is a logical fallacy and you know it.

    It was used to great extent on high value targets on Phinny. It was happening in Seb, Frontier Mnts, Chardok, LOIO (stupid Chancellor), as well as Firiona Vie to name a few places. This was used to "snipe" rare mobs that others had already engaged. You cannot defend against a well executed carm+ coth exploit. Just because YOU haven't seen it, doesn't make it rare. Look beyond your own nose.

    Well, I would love a return to the "First in Force" policed policy but it isn't going to happen. DPS racing is actually a policy that DBG employs on it's servers, AND actually they state that abuse of any game mechanic in ways other than it was intended is considered exploiting. why would they state that dps racing is fine, but exploiting the game isn't? Maybe it is because they don't actually want their players running around like children being schmucks to each other and using, what they consider unfair tactics, to negatively affect gameplay. The fact that they haven't fixed it yet is because of their somewhat limited ability in recent years (the years since this change was made). This exploit didn't exist until 2012, that's 13 YEARS of being able to actually play the game without it. Yet, some charm classes use it now as a "go-to" first engage tool to "snipe" rare mobs from other players. Trust me it WILL get worse in Kunark once CotH is useable.

    But we expect people to play within the rules nonetheless. That's why we have PRISONS in RL. You know what, I will just start reporting people who abuse this mechanic on rare mobs, and encourage others to do so. I have already /bugged it. The easiest workaround here is to flag rare mobs as uncharmeable, something that will not affect you as a cleric player but most deffinitely affect me as a Necro player, and I am fine with it. The real question is why are you even bothering discussing this.
  12. Thygrym Elder

    A little code change is all they need to do. Make gate/coth break charm and wipe agro. Invisible/hide already break charm. FD already clears agro. The code already exists they just need to tweak it some.
  13. code-zero Augur

    A little code change? Really?
  14. Lisfin Journeyman

    No I don't know it, what fallacy would that be?

    Can you show me where they have said charming a mob is "unfair tactics"? I have yet to see a official response on this...

    This is my point, there are many other things that need to be fixed. Why waste time on this none issue. As I said before, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_a_mountain_out_of_a_molehill ...

    Can you show me where in the "rule book" it says you can't use charm and gate at the same time? OMG people using spells in ways they were designed...

    And for real, all this complaining about charm/coth being unstoppable and how its ruining the game...It's not even in the game currently, so why do you keep repeating it like its currently happening...And using it as examples every time when its NOT even a issue right now.

    And what happens to quest mobs that require a chanter to charm them to do hand ins? Do all them quests just become incomplete? Do they go through every quest and make sure it does not require a charmed NPC? Its not as easy as just flipping a global boolean...

    Your right, they should just make global changes to every rare mob, I am sure this wont break anything in the game. How can you be sure this "fix" wont break more things and cause more problems like the pathing fix? You were not happy with that fix , why do you think this fix wont have any "exploits"?
  15. Hadesborne Augur

    "non causa pro causa" or "False Cause" fallacy. Look it up. It is when you conclude about a cause without enough evidence to do so.


    Listen we are just going to have to agree to disagree here. You don't think it is neccessary because you haven't seen this tactic enough. That is fair.

    I have, and as such, I think the change to charmability of named mobs needs to be done. I also have seen the change suggested actually performed and seen how it really fixed Howling Stones for the better. I also have seen the changes first hand that have created this exploit in the first place. I understand where the intent was, by reading the change logs at the time, and that this exploit didn't come about by design.

    If you have a differing viewpoint, that is fine. But please don't stand in the way of those that may just have a bit more experience with this situation than you do (and that's not a knock on you, you just haven't seen it enough).
  16. BlueberryWerewolf Augur


    The difference being when you invis to break charm the mob turns and attacks you.

    If you gate to break charm, the mob will attack the closest person in its aggro range.

    Sounds like replacing one problem with another to me.
  17. Lisfin Journeyman

    "non causa pro causa" or "False Cause" fallacy. Look it up. It is when you conclude about a cause without enough evidence to do so.

    You are using this fallacy incorrectly, they stated exactly why they changed it.

    Why has it not been "fixed'? Because it's not a exploit, broken or worth changing...it's the exact reason why, not a guess...
  18. BlueberryWerewolf Augur


    I believe the fallacy you may be looking for is post hoc ergo propter hoc. Charm gating exists in the game, and they haven't fixed it for being an exploit, so therefore charm gating isn't an exploit.

    There is not logical path to follow between charm gating not being fixed and charm gating not being an exploit without any further context. Is there a Dev post somewhere stating it is not an exploit? All we have is the knowledge that is hasn't been fixed and assumptions about the reason it hasn't been fixed.
  19. Lisfin Journeyman

    "Is there a Dev post somewhere stating it is not an exploit?"

    They made this change on purpose years ago, if they didnt want charm pets warping to the owner they would of added code to prevent it.

    Can you link anything stating warping a charmed mob too you is exploiting? After all these posts about this none issue i have yet to see a dev/mod say its a exploit...

    I think the burden of proof is on the people claiming its a exploit.
  20. Hadesborne Augur

    They made this change to fix Merc pathing and they tacked on pets to this change later. This wasn't doen so that chanter charmed pets would warp to them. it is what we call, an unintended side effect. Something they probably were willing to accept at the time. Then the player base got a hold of it and learned all of the ways they could exploit this mechanic in ways the devs hadn't thought of. The best part is, I DONT NEED TO PROVE ANY OF THIS TO YOU. Your opinion means diddly sqwat because, as you have stated, you have no skin in the game and no experience seeing this done.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.