Customer Service Clarification Requested: What Constitutes an Exploit?

In the brain of everyone who didn't get banned. If the nuance of this online game is too great for you, maybe try Minesweeper?

No. That's just silly. It costs more to actively prevent content from openly broadcasting to you than it does to just let it. And if it's not showing up on your bill then they aren't counting it toward royalties. Although, they would be liable for that if they notified the content provider of the problem. The situation is even worse when it comes to a video game. There's exactly zero cost when a bug is exploited.

No no no. You're paying for a service. You're a customer. If you didn't want to play the video game then you wouldn't subscribe to the service or purchase the content in the first place. Do you factor the cost of your time when you watch a movie that you paid for? You know I'd really want to go see that movie but you my time is expensive. If I have to sit there for 2 hours they better pay me my $50/hr rate!

My only point here is that you can't use theft analogies based on items with real world value when you're talking about a bug in a video game. Stealing someones account? Sure. Hacking the server or even the client code? Sure. Those make sense for an account suspension/service interruption. Exploiting an in-game bug to gain an in-game advantage should also be dealt with in-game. If you're worried about extra spells being looted then make them all no-drop on that character. Or if it's the VP key pieces then have them login and get a message about their VP key crumbling. Maybe one of the pieces was a fake!

They'd even be more right to do a roll-back on a per character basis than they are to suspend an entire account. Because interruption of service is costing you actual money. You paid for a thing and you're not receiving the thing. It's not that complicated.

Yes. Run more customers away from Everquest. That helps the community sooooooooo much.

I am not going to defend Daybreak. I'm not going to attack Daybreak. I'm not going to address the point of this thread.

I'm going to address just this one point.

Yes, going afk and doing stuff is against the rules. And it is stated by Daybreak here:

https://help.daybreakgames.com/hc/en-us/categories/204220948-EVERQUEST
https://help.daybreakgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/231115088-EverQuest-AFK-or-Unattended-Gameplay-
EverQuest AFK or Unattended Gameplay

People have legitimate points about the rules and whether they are clear on many things. However, on unattended gameplay, they are quite clear.

There is one type of unattended gameplay that is allowed, however (unless they have changed this):
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...on-notice-stop-now.191668/page-6#post-2844743

Pretty much anything else is not allowed.

People actively look for instance locking. I am sure you can find instances where people writeup how a mission works and they state when the instance locks. This was done specifically to aid players in flagging characters who did not participate in the task up to that point (and, people have sold TaskAdds for years for said flags) or to get in the task for a shot at a piece of loot. Does turning a blind eye (or probably, not prioritizing the correction of the issue) mean DBG is condoning this action? Absolutely not. And any argument to that effect is ludicrous. Cops don't always pull you over for speeding, do they? It is always illegal. Next time a cop pulls you over for speeding, scream at him that you have been speeding in that zone for YEARS and he just now decides to pull you over!!! Clearly, they accepted speeding there. I am sure it will have the effect you want.

I recall a mission in DoDH when it first came out that had the chest spawn well before the mission was completed. Some friends of mine invited me to the task (because it dropped a piece of gear I wanted) and cleared the mobs from near the chest and sent me to open it. It wasn't the piece I needed, so they dropped the task and did the same thing. I questioned the doing of this, but went along anyway. Again, I didn't get the piece I was after. So, they repeated it. I told them I had to log and went and played another character. It felt wrong to get the reward for doing a mission (even though I was not getting an item, I was checking the loot) that I was not completing. But that was just me. My friends had no such compunctions. The game allowed it. There were no suspensions handed out for this, but I think the chest was moved (or the lockout point was). I am not sure if this would be the precedent because I have never done the mission(s) in question. I don't know what was done, how game breaking it was, etc.

A moral compass is an individual thing. Your moral compass may not be the same as someone else. Don't mistake what you think is okay for what is universally okay. I do not judge the people who chose to do what they did as cheats because the game allowed it. However, I don't think I would have done it. It was clearly flawed. It was obviously not intended. 21 days is a ridiculous suspension for doing this. Rollbacks are not the answer because of the domino effect. The collateral damage could be catastrophic to people who were unknowingly accomplices. If DBG wants to send a message, 7 days would be more than enough for the most egregious of violators. 21 days is just driving people away.

Just to stir the pot some more...

First let me be clear, this OT mission thing is an exploit for sure and people should have realized they risked a penalty for abusing it.

Having said that, you might also consider scripted missions in EQ a bit like streaming content from say Netflix. Does Netflix care if you decline to watch the entire movie? Do they care if you skip around or start over from the beginning? Do they care if you replay it over and over?

Sure the analogy is far from exact, but at some point DBG is a content provider and the customer has some input into how they consume that content.

I'm not attempting to excuse the punished, I think this might help explain how the DBG can differentiate when actions might not raise to the level of exploit. For example, dropping a mission because your named didn't spawn so that you can immediately do it again.

You are looking at it too simplistically, i.e., that the cable company just broadcasts all signals out on the wire at a consistent cost, which would be correct. You would also be correct in assuming that it doesn't cost much to block a signal, because it is controlled on the box itself, and not at the source. But again, this is a very, too, simplistic view of it. Cable companies pay HBO a fee to broadcast their signal. This fee is then distributed to the customer base via access fees for HBO. This fee covers things like equipment maintenance, personnel, customer service, programming, etc.

Now, you come along, and decide to take that service for free. The cable company doesn't get your money for its services to you, nor does HBO to provide services to the cable company to provide to you. Now, you get thousands of other people to do the same, and the equipment and people providing you service are having to work just as hard, but without reaping any compensation to keep equipment maintained, salaries paid, etc.

See, there is more to it than just a signal being pushed down to you by a head end. There is a lot of equipment and people behind the scenes that make it all happen, and compensation for their service is how you keep your service going.

Problem is, we have gotten this notion these days that "the customer is always right." Sorry, but the customer isn't always right, and they aren't right in this instance, either.

But, you are missing the point. It isn't the theft that is being focused on, it is the exploitation of an error, in this case a bug, to gain something for yourself, being it real or fake. You still gain something from it, either you yourself, or your toon did through your controlling it. Whether it has value to you isn't the point, it has value to the company providing the service. However they quantify that value to be, it is important enough for them to do something about it. But this does beg the question...if it didn't have value to you, why go for it? If nothing in the game has value to you, why play it at all? Even if it is for enjoyment, that in and of itself is value.

You've got 'em this time Metanis, your eLawyering skills have got all your friends unsuspended.

I accept $50 and $100 bills....

I didn't decide anything. The content is received and available whether I watch it or not. The same goes for Everquest. I can login and play and whether I exploit a bug in a mission or not it still costs the same. It's not about being right or wrong. That's not really important to the theft argument.

You're now focusing on a really weird aspect. The spells and VP key pieces have absolutely zero value to the game company. They cost nothing and they are worth nothing. They could just give everyone 1000 each at no cost if they wanted to.

What do I value? I value being able to play a game that I've purchased and pay a subscription for. Whether you like AFKing in guild lobby, running through the tutorial over and over, or exploiting missions for VP key pieces. It's all the same. Some people may enjoy one of those things or all of those things or something else. The game provides you with each option and they all cost the same. You do the stuff in-game that you enjoy. Now, if some of those things have in-game penalties to go along with them then that's fine too. But the point is that suspending service to an account and preventing people from accessing what they've paid for simply for choosing to play the game in a way that developers don't like is a bad thing to do.

This is totally incorrect. It's a fabrication, 100% made up in your head.

Late task locks are not intended to help pass out rewards to nonparticipating characters. Not at all not one little bit, not in any example. Later task locks are to help out players that get in over their heads and then want/need to call in assistance, to get more or more-capable participants to overcome the challenge at hand.

What you are describing is unpunished exploits.

What follows in your justification for feather-light cheating penalties is sheer moral cowardice. Parents, teachers, preachers? Failed you.

I have a question about AFK or Unattended Gameplay.

If you need to go away for longer than a few seconds please move your character to an empty part of the zone or log out completely.

If a player in a group goes AFK for whatever reason for a period of time, is that considered AFK gameplay?

Should players disband from the group/raid every time they go AFK?

If a long mission is almost done, and someone has to go to work, can they stay in the group for the achievement, or do they need to drop the task/group?

How long is an acceptable AFK to stay in group?

I've seen people go afk for an expected short time, and then not get back for an hour due to unforeseen circumstances.

What if someone is power leveling a lowbie, and the lowbie is just in group to absorb exp, but due to level, can't really do anything. So he's at the keys, but not doing any actions. If that AFK gameplay?

By the rules, it is clear they should disband from group/raid/task, but that seems unreasonable.

I understand the rules are to prevent merc/pet killing and gaining something while afk, but by the way the rule is written it applies to other examples.

I can agree with

If a character, including any pets or mercs, is found performing actions while the user is away disciplinary action will be taken against the account.

but not AFK killing while in an active group.

Literal reading of the rule, is that you can get banner for going to the bathroom, if the group kills a mob.

Garbage. Everyone knows that you cannot loot a chest without getting an associated lockout and if you do then it is a bug. Stop justifying it and using stupid comparisons that are off.

I can see what you're trying to do, but your wannabe-lawyer ego is inhibiting you from realizing that you're grossly missing your mark.

What you're ACTUALLY doing is showing everybody that reads this that you are incapable of critical thinking and exercising common sense.

I'm not Daybreak.

However, it seems to me that the main point is:

[emphasis added]

So, if you are part of a group and you go afk for a while, you should be fine. Technically, I guess you should turn off your merc during this time, but that is kind of nitpicking if Daybreak would enforce that.

Because if you are part of a group and you, but not the rest of the group, go afk, you are not "performing actions". The rest of the group is "performing actions" but you are not.

The hope is that this rule is enforced only against "hardcore" people who set up a pet and/or merc to do killing for many hours while they are off doing something else (work, sleep). But that is a hope.

What Daybreak really does, I can't say. I've heard all kinds of stories. The rule seems mostly clear. No rule is perfect or can cover everything. Trying leads to seventeen page listings of what and what is not allowed, where everyone is a rules lawyer. I guess a clarification about being in a group and going afk would not hurt. However, it comes down to Daybreak. They need to enforce rules against real offenders, not casual rule bending.

YOU STILL HAVE A CHOICE to exploit or not. Just because it is there, the game didn't strip your ability to reason, didn't take away your intellect or conscious. That is the absurdity of the argument you are presenting.... "It has no value to me, and the game made me do it."

Again, define value. You seem to be trying to tie everything to $$, and what I keep pointing out is that value means different things to different people/organizations. That dog poo on my lawn may not be of any value to you, but it may be good for my garden, so it has value to me. So, if you come and try to take it (which would mean you are a weirdo, too), I'll nail you for theft, even though that dog poo has $0 market value.

Nothing is keeping you from doing this. Just don't exploit and get caught, simple enough. It isn't like half of the EQ population got suspended overnight, which means that MOST people here can grasp the concept of following the rules.

And, as I have stated before, in regard to THIS situation, DBG should have handled it better, for sure.

Watching some try to justify an exploit is really kind of fun. I hope it continues. And yes, DBG could have handled it better.

I am really worried that they might Suspend me for not personally Crafting each subcombine of the Artisan's Prize.
I am also worried that they might Suspend me for not personally crafting each subcombine of the Crestra's Earring

DBG needs to take responsibility for their own mistakes and not blame their customers. They corrected the issue in one element of the game and left in another element knowing it was an issue. This is not an exploit by definition.

This bug was openly discussed by my guild. on our own chat server. Most chose not to do it. Those that did got suspended. Those suspended most only got a week or two... Some got 3 weeks but had been in trouble before.

Those who didn't will still be behind those that did when they return gearwise. Those that did, will really just get a much needed vacation from the game.