Cleric raid healing - to intervention, or not to intervention?

Discussion in 'Priests' started by Nylrem, Apr 22, 2019.

  1. Nylrem Augur

    So, I just started raiding casually again with my cleric alt...

    Doing some quick and rough calculations, I estimate if war tank has Auspice on about half the time, then their average Shaman alliance AE heal proc is going to be about 17.4k. 11.8k proc, 31% innate heal crit chance, plus 33% / 2 (half the time up) for Auspice uptime.

    I know, rough figures and will vary a lot depending on length of event, number of rangers, etc...

    Even with only 10% uptime on Auspice though, would be 15.9k proc average, 15.4k average with just war innate chance.

    Anyway, multibind of Remedy > Remedy > Dissident > Intervention > Intervention > Intervention gives about 35 heals per 100s.

    Remedy > Remedy > Remedy can get 40 heals per 100s...

    If have 3 clerics healing the MT, 15 extra heals per 100s = 261k average AREA EFFECT (including the MT) healage MORE if using Remedy x3, than using 2 remedies and Interventions instead.

    (238k with only 10% uptime on Auspice, 231k minimum with just war innate).

    Yes, I realize lose some single target healage to the MT, using 3rd Remedy vs Interventions.
    I'm questioning is when is it enough to matter, vs the overall AE, including MT, healage?

    All this is assuming a shaman keeps alliance up on the MT of course...

    If a knight is MT... these number quadruple, or even more, due to their focus and heal crit chance.

    Provided there is 3+ healers on the MT, and a shaman is keeping Alliance on the MT... What are the situations where a cleric would want to use Interventions over the third Remedy?

    Only one I can think of, is that it's a farm event, and tank is over healed anyway, and in that case, probably using ITC and contraventions x 3, intraventions x3?
  2. Brohg Augur

    Redo math a little : Blessing of the Ancients doesn't crit ever

    Your per-condition of having 3 clerics spam the 3 Remedies on a single tank without interruptions feels like an impossible luxury. It's definitely the ideal scenario for the 3-3-Remedy heal mode, and the 3-3-Remedy heal mode is ideal for that scenario. That scenario, though, probably isn't even ideal in a larger sense. If three clerics can heal that way, then two clerics can probably cover the boss damage utilizing the higher heals-per-second of a Rems+Inters setup, freeing a whole raid slot for characters managing event mechanics or adding some amount of damage, dropping fight duration to make it soooo much more likely the tank gets to survive.
  3. Nylrem Augur

    Ugh, that is terrible that it doesn't crit. Thankees much for the info! Makes a big difference.

    What I am hearing you say, though... is that if it's a single tank vs a single mob, then 2 clerics (with shaman alliance on tank) should be able to keep tank up, using Remedy > Remedy > Interventions x3?

    And rest of clerics should be DPSing (including contraventions, of course)?
  4. Mehdisin Mahn Augur

    if I remember correctly, alliance proc no longer happens on literally any heal. there's a cooldown on it. iirc it can only happen every 1.5sec. so once you hit ~66 heals / 100s on the tank between your clerics you're not getting the extra alliance procs. this also means you can't fulminate alliance on the same tank but once every ~2.5min.
  5. Gundolin Augur

    Interesting, I wonder what the general take is on this. In raids I usually wouldn't have my dps spell's up, but if I did (And I wasn't in the MT group) in that scenario I'd run

    Nuke >>Int>>Int>>Nuke>>Contra>>Contra>>Nuke>>Int>>Contra and repeat probably while wacking away with my hammer, kind of like in a group where you have a decent tank. But we don't seem to hit situations often in raids where I would have a spell line up that could do that. I'm thinking with that line up, on a single mob, I could make the top 45 or so in most parses. ;)

    Realistically in raids it seems like we have too many adds pop in to allow me to focus on dps, so I would probably be running more healing to the off tanks, we just don't have long enough periods of 1 Mob 1 tank in raid to focus on dps and keep up a spell list that has 3 contras and a nuke in it. But we are still on the first tier of TBL so maybe that's for clerics further ahead?
  6. Moldar Elder

    Mehdisin Mahn is correct the buff has an internal timer between the AE wave proc heal of 1.5s meaning that if 3 heals were to all land at the same exact time only 1 AE would go off.

    That being said most spells have a spell bar timer lockout of about 1.5s or so, thus 1 cleric spamming fast heals is more or less always going to get an AE wave to proc, it is only noticable when you have several (3+) healers on a single tank that the internal timer is really noticeable. That being said the best way to quickly get off all of the charges in as quick a succession as possible is to spam the tank with healing spells as quickly as possible. But to go through all 120 of the charges it would take roughly 3 minutes of constant spam heals for it to fulminate making that portion of the heal as reliable as the Cleric Promised Heal line of spells for when it actually counts.
  7. Annastasya Augur

    Yes to intervention use. Except when stuff is being mezzed, then use the Fervid line. Alliance is a good tool, and it can make for lots of exciting numbers, but healing is not dps. i'd recommend against going down the rabbit hole of trying to maximize healing by using only the numbers and raw spell data.
  8. Nylrem Augur

    I had no idea alliance didn't proc on every heal. That explains quite a bit of my experience on raiding with main though...

    Thought maybe our shaman weren't doing a great job of keeping alliance on the MT, when it could take 2 seconds to receive heal after AE, and MT should, I thought, be proccing alliance heals 2 to 3 times per second.

    Thankee much for that info!

    I absolutely do not want to use only numbers and raw spell data, is why I am trying to find out more info here, however, I DO want to try and maximize my healing AND DPS.

    It's been my experience that most healers (meaning more than 50%, but not all, by any means) couldn't care less, about doing either.

    Which brings me back to exactly why I inquired about interventions vs 3rd Remedy...

    Gundolin, you seem to mock cleric DPS, but, if set your mind to it, how much, with ADPS, could you do, but still heal adequately? 100k? 150? Ever even tried to see? Still better than pointlessly overhealing IMO. I've looked at our cleric's spells cast during events, combined, and aside from the 5 single target and 2 group heals, plus a buff if assigned, there's rarely a time where there's any other spell cast more than 1% of spell casts... I personally feel that if a spell isn't cast at least 1% of the time during an event, it would be better use memming a spell that would be. So, that's 5 spells that could be used for dps, without giving up any healing ability whatsoever. If willing to go Remedy x3, could bump that to 7 spell gems that could be used for DPS.

    Back to my original question, then... How much gain is there (in raid environment), if any, using 2 Remedy and 3 Interventions over 3 Remedy?

    Can anyone tell me what a cleric is even capable of, for DPS, with raid buffs and gear, with a bard in group?

    I would venture to say there are very few shaman that can do it, but I know one that can sustain 300k DPS indefinitely (or until mob buff locked), while still maintaining 3rd or 4th on heal parse.

    We have a wizard that hits 60k MELEE DPS during burns...

    Don't know what you're capable of, til you try...
  9. Mehdisin Mahn Augur

    maybe someone's figured out something different, but shamans cannot sustain 300kdps indefinitely. (most shamans won't even hit 300k on a burn). even if you could, it would require entirely too many debuff slots to be worthwhile. there's a point where you gotta say "if it doesn't do a minimum of X dmg, then it's not worth it".

    IIRC most cleric's dps stuff is direct dmg and best used in combination with necro's turning the mob undead. it's worthwhile in that instance for couple clerics to pop off a burn if your guild needs the DPS bump. although if priests not DPSing is what is holding your guild back, then your DPS classes are slacking =).
  10. Cadira Augur

    If your the only or like one of two clerics healing a single tank on a hard hitter, the difference can be life or death. I load a set with 3 remedies if the entire event doesn't have any situations like I just described, and I load a different set with 3 interventions if I know I will be in that sitation.

    Cleric dps is a joke unless the mob is indead, and even then it's nothing compared to a dps class.
  11. Brohg Augur

    I don't use 3rd Intervention because it's below the benefit of Focus AAs. I run Syllable in the multibind instead
  12. Cadira Augur

    Below the benefit of focus aas?

    Not the worst idea either way imo, but I'd hate to have a syllable on cd when I need it. Might consider a renewal in its place as it has the same cast time and an even bigger heal (albeit st and a cure component).

    Nice to have syllable and word on their own bind imo.
  13. Brohg Augur

    Focus AAs only cut in on 101+ spells, the third Intervention is 98 so 20% less power than plain level scaling would imply. I like multi'ing Syllable so's I can pay less attention to group hp bars, and the Synergy evens out healing from the subsequent smaller heals.
  14. Clarisa Augur

    I generally use the R-R-I (Remedy, Remedy, Intervention) sequence when I am solo or dual healing (with another cleric) and anticipate little to no healing support (no surges, splashes, etc.) on the target. This happens on some events when the raid has to split up and there are multiple tanking targets. The Intervention increases the healing delay to the tank by a second every third heal, but the increased heal amount compared to the oldest Remedy reduces the chance the tank will be underhealed, especially if both of the Remedies in the sequence don't crit. I substitute the Interventions for Renewals, which will increase the healing delay by another .3 seconds (to 1.3), when crowd control (mez or root) may be broken if I heal targets with them or when there is a possibility I will gain unwanted aggro (on events with swarms of adds and aggro on them seems loose). There are certain events where neither Interventions nor Renewals can be used, such as on events with crowd control and where indiscriminate curing is detrimental (curing the wrong thing gets someone blown up, for instance), but these are rare.

    Otherwise, I end up using the Triple-R (Remedy, Remedy, Remedy) sequence the majority of the time because when the target has even a little bit of outside healing support, the chances he will end up underhealed (and the chance that the Intervention will even land because of the increased additional heals) are low. I may sometimes even use the Triple-R sequence when dual healing if the incoming damage to the tank seems low and that sequence can cover it. Clerics have plenty of tools (Burst of Life, Manisi Branch/Apothic Hammer, Divine Arb, Divine Balance, Beacon of Life) to recover from a low/non heal crit and Dissident Blessing/Undying Life (if it is available) can also be used in place of the next Remedy in the sequence if a much stronger fast heal is needed. This is also why I encourage our clerics to not use DB/UL in a multibind, because if it is being chain cast on a target that might not need it when its turn comes up in the bind, it is robbed of its situational usefulness

    Often, I weave support abilities into heals so a common sequence might actually look more like: R-PR/PI-R-DB-R-DI (sometimes with abilities/clickies cast in between during the global cooldown to cover for missed/low heals to the primary target) and those might not all be cast on the primary target/MT. It all really just depends on the event and how much focused/uninterrupted healing is necessary. I find using Pano's GINA Healing Window ( extremely helpful in determining the need for focused healing and the efficacy of various sequences in real time. It also now shows actual and overhealing values, so I know how much I am overhealing and is color-coded so I know the relative strength of each heal without having to read the numbers. Unless the healing situation is very routine/trivial and I can get away with the base sequences described above, I always use the information I get from that to plan my healing sequences.

    One of the things I do a lot of is improvise and not just rely on stock casting sequences and that's where tools like the healing window and experience come into play. If I am using the R-R-I sequence and see after the first R that the tank is in trouble, I may use an instant heal or click effect followed by an I, and based on what that lands for and how the tank's health is doing, I will decide to continue with an R or cast another I even if it doesn't continue the stock sequence. I will also use abilities like FCR or DG (if it is not already up) during global recast to bolster healing in between spell casts. It might seem like this slows healing to the tank due to the time necessary to think but years of experience healing tanks in a bunch of different situations have pretty much made my responses instinctual. Sometimes I will over/underestimate the incoming damage and choose the wrong heal, but that's what our "save" tools like Divine Arb/Epic etc. are for.

    I am not much of an expert on cleric DPS, though it's not something I generally focus on in raids. I can say that it is considerably harder (at least for me) to perform a sequence like the one above (R-PR/PI-R-DB-R-DI) replacing the Remedies with Contraventions, especially on different targets because it requires targeting the mob that is targeting the tank to heal the correct target. That introduces a natural delay in the performance of such a sequence (even with an /assist key), which limits me basically to MT healing where identifying the target mob (boss) is easier and it never changes. That might be fine if I were going to heal the MT, anyway, but I usually want to do more than that and the target-swapping required just gets in the way -- at least for me (some clerics may be able to do it better).

    Also, though some clerics like to focus on/have fun with DPS on trivial events, I prefer focusing on support actions (PR/PI, Ward, DG, DI, FCR, UL/DB, etc.) and pretend these events are harder to heal because it helps me train for harder content, allowing me to optimize my healing sequences and improve my muscle memory/reaction time for harder events. That may seem like a waste to some because technically any non-zero DPS contributes to the boss dying faster, but I haven't seen enough evidence that cleric DPS makes a boss die that much faster to be worth the effort (and my raid leaders will never give me a bard or enchanter to ever maximize it). I would be interested in seeing some parses just to get an idea of where it is at currently, though.
  15. Clarisa Augur

    I am sure I just forgot, but which Focus AA specifically? According to this, Improved Intervention, which increases base damage and healing, works on every spell in the line (hasn't been updated to include the latest rank but not sure that would have changed):

    Brohg likes this.
  16. Brohg Augur

    Oh that's something I didn't know, neat. I guess because the hastening predated the Focus AA category they got grandfathered in. Nuke/disc things for other classes, and even Focus:Remedies for clerics doesn't work like that.
  17. Drogba Augur

  18. Gundolin Augur

    100k to 150k dps with a cleric? Nope, I'd be interested to see your parse. Like I say if I'm solo healing a tank I would run Nuke >>Int>>Int>>Nuke>>Contra>>Contra>>Nuke>>Int>>Contra which is the highest sustained dps spell cast I know. But I personally have never been able to run that sequence in a raid situation, as switching targets for the Contra's and checking their targets target takes too much time. That's 7 spell slots, in a group situation, with a solid tank its fairly easy to run this, and add in melee dps maxing divine avatar, and yaulp. But I'm not coming any place near 150K dps, and that's in a group, where I have no healing responsibility outside of the six people in my group. Much easier than a raid, where my XT is full of other groups people that also need to be kept alive.

    To your second question Using 3 remedy if I'm solo healing a tank, I can't reliably keep him alive. I have to throw in a bigger heal every 3 casts or so. I admittedly often panic when I have to hit Burst of Life, and hit Beacon at the same time, maybe you are alternating them more? so its like remedy, remedy, Burst, Remedy, Remedy, Beacon, Remedy, Remedy, Epic, Remedy Remedy, Divine Arb? I don't know. To be honest I also have trouble hitting either Epic, or Divine Arbitration without immediately following it with a group heal. So I have no idea of what the results would be, but it seems like you would be pressing for a lot of heals when all three of your Remedies are timed out if you are trying to use those exclusively.
  19. Brohg Augur

    8 slots, the Nuke has to be alternated. Judgement nuke is only ready every 4th spell, so you have to use top two Judgement to run one every 3rd

    If you're running just 7 spells, and getting a Judgement every 3rd cast, then your spellcasting is slow and that may be changing your perspective on the dps available.
    Gundolin likes this.
  20. Brohg Augur

    There is no time when all three Remedies are timed out. Are you reading that as Renewals?
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