Cleric class group (un)desirability and requested 'upgrades'

Discussion in 'Priests' started by PatchinBB, Apr 7, 2020.

  1. PatchinBB New Member

    OK, I'm going to start a new thread, hopefully in time to maybe see something done for new expansion.

    What the cleric class needs is a HUGE boost to DPS, and aDPS to compete in group environment desirability.

    The primary problem with clerics in today's environment is they are completely unwanted in pickup groups when either other priest class is available.

    Shamans and druids add A LOT more utility, DPS, aDPS, and better buffs/debuffs for a group, while still functioning just fine as main healers in group content.

    • Either one can throw 2 DoT spells on a mob, then swap to healing, debuffing, etc, and be in the 200k plus sustained DPS range. Or then follow with other DoTs/nukes, and increase even more.
    • Either one can burn for 800k DPS plus when needed, with buffs/boosts from other classes.
    • Either one provide Auras, epic clicks, buffs, or AA that significantly boost a group's DPS.
    • Either one can also, at the same time, provide enough healing for the group.
    • When there is enough healing and a good enough tank, then DPS is all that matters to most groups, to kill mobs faster.
    Tanks have grown tremendously more resilient with their discs, AA, etc, and able to withstand bad situations, multiple mobs, etc, for short periods easily, with just 'standard' heals.

    This is all well and good.

    BUT, it's leaving cleric mains in a very bad spot.

    Every single cleric main that I know boxes toons to be able to grind out xp/tasks, or has a dedicated group of friends that 'helps' them through content, get xp, etc.

    That's exactly the way others see it, they're 'helping' their cleric friend... NOT the other way around...

    People that main priest classes selected them because they wanted to be in the assist/helper type role. This is especially true of clerics. Cleric mains KNOW they have given up the ability to solo effectively, to be the 'premier' healer/assist to a group.
    This is no longer the case. They are now considered the ones that 'need help'.

    This will lead to the downfall of the class, if not rectified soon, and cleric mains leaving the game because of it.

    Just like the DoT revamp issues for necros, and so many Necro mains leaving the game because they were no longer wanted in raids.

    It's almost impossible for the new, returning cleric main to do anything. Unwanted by most groups, unable to solo effectively even at the lower levels.

    Even in ToV, with all the undead, a cleric still doesn't even come close to competing with a druid or shaman on DPS for sustained or burn.

    I have several ideas for the ability for clerics to boost their DPS/aDPS abilities, and still stay with the 'flavor' of the class that I'd like to propose, and maybe others will chime in with their ideas.

    Assuming the next expansion is only going to be a couple spells/abilities per class, they should be SIGNIFICANT, for us to even come close to desirable, IMO.


    While gaining a significant amount of DPS, we cannot lose too much to healing. Much like the shaman and druid ability to spend a couple seconds to throw a DoT, then do other things like heal, buff, debuff, etc, the cleric needs similar ability to maintain heal power.

    We should NOT be required to give up most of our healing efficacy to add halfway decent DPS.

    Here are my, hopefully, not too time consumptive options. IMO, all should be implemented, to get clerics to halfway decent desirability in groups again:

    1: Significantly increase our summoned pets' (spell AND AA pets) DPS, HP, and AC.

    Since swarm pets don't stick around, aren't able to be given inventory/weapons items, or get boosts from group buffs, and we can only summon 1 (of each) at a time, AND mob AC is outrageous, it would have to be HUGE increase to base stats and DPS.

    Like 100k+ ish DPS, and able to withstand raid AEs, riposts, etc.

    Our current pet does like 2k dps, and killed by weak combat dummy riposts in 10s or less. It's absolutely ridiculous, a complete waste of developer time to even mess with this spell that is completely unusable in current content. If time is to be spent on it, it should be usable and worthwhile to cast.

    2: Create a new DPS/aDPS aura for clerics.

    Essentially, it could just be a copy/paste of the bard overhaste aura. Our current (level 100) mitigation aura is practically useless, since it doesn't stack with Shining.

    One of the biggest issues with clerics is the lack of aDPS abilities. An overhaste aura would be very desired in group and raid content both. We're usually in a tank group when raiding, that rarely/never sees a bard. An overhaste aura would be very welcome in group and raid. If grouped with bard, they could instead run one of their other great Auras, mana regen, etc.

    3: Create a new PBAE heal with intervention type properties.

    Make it fastish recast (6-9 seconds), fastish cast time, either 3.0s to be elegible for reduction, or 1.8s or less, do an adequate amount of healing per target (10k ish base heal) and very good nuke on target's target. Like 20k (unfocusable) damage nuke, for every target that the heal hit. *** if focusable, IMO, developers would want far too low base damage, to compensate for raid numbers, to be relevant for group play/DPS.

    For groups, this would be a decent but not great group heal, with ~120k (if everyone is actually targetted on the mob) nuke to the mob. For raids, it would be a good AE heal with ~ 900k nuke (assuming the heal hits 45 people that are targetted on the mob, which is probably a be a bit high, for average, for many actual raid scenarios). Still not OP, for either scenario, but decent. Definitely better than what we have. AND possibly put us where we should be, in respect to AE healing compared to shaman.

    4: Add several more tiers of Improved Contravention and Improved Intervention AA to reduce recast times.

    Reduce recast to something more reasonable, like 9 seconds. Our Interventions and Contraventions should be our 'primary' lines. 20 second recast on them is too long.

    Currently, even a 'good' cleric, swapping targets and using 6 year old spells trying to eek out best DPS WHILE healing decently, and casting 115 contravention > 110 contravention > 105 contravention > (swap target) 113 intervention > 108 intervention > 103 intervention STILL has a lull in healing, and STILL doing garbage DPS.

    9s recast is where they should be, for both lines. This would allow a cleric to cast 115 contravention > 110 contravention > 113 intervention > 108 contravention without a lull in healing, and provide still very low, but about double current DPS doing same.

    5: At least TRIPLE the base damage on Intervention, Contravention, and all rest of DD spell lines.

    I know this is probably going to have to wait until next spell increase expansion if even considered, but clerics don't receive near the nuke AA/boosts that casters do.

    Our nukes need far more base damage than is the 'standard', and they're currently far less than half the 'standard' damage of caster's nukes. If we're going to practically give up healing, for nuke DPS, then it should really mean something.

    Yes, I realize I'm reaching for the stars in these requests. And that implementing all of these together for a cleric would make us about as powerful as Shamans currently are, in group content.

    But, that's where I think we SHOULD be.
    Skuz and Cadira like this.
  2. Petalonyx Augur

    Agree that clerics are in need of a boost. Agree with hammer pet and auras being prime targets for improvement.

    EQ has a heal saturation problem. Giving the cleric more healing won't solve anything in this environment.

    There needs to be improvement to dps, adps, utility.

    Since clerics have spell haste in their court already, one option would be to step that up HARD. Note that melee dps is still much preferred/ahead of caster, so this may address two issues at once.

    A large number of things can and should be tweaked to up their personal dps.
  3. Pano Augur

    Or, could just make Divine Avatar and Battle Frenzy hit the entire group.
    Skuz likes this.
  4. Petalonyx Augur

    An idea hit me in the shower:

    Give clerics a pet that is an exact, or near-exact copy of the cleric merc.

    This will make clerics strictly better than a cleric merc in groups, while providing the cleric the opportunity to roll into more DPS if they want when their extra healing isn't needed. Could copy the equivalent level cleric merc, or one 5 or 10 levels lower if the healing is considered excessive.

    It's wouldn't infringe on any other class's design space or introduce anything with unknown interactions. It certainly would increase the level of cleric invites to groups.
    menown likes this.
  5. Wulfhere Augur

    Please fix Quicktime bugs as well, so this could be done without breaking caster classes.
  6. Belkar_OotS Augur

    I disagree with the premise of clerics not being wanted in groups or only wanted as a third string healer in groups etc.

    Clerics have some huge advantages in the healing and survival departments. It just happens that this is generally regarded as an easier expansion and that excessive healing and survival isn't in the "needed" department at the moment.

    However, I 100% agree that clerics would benefit from more flavor and frankly need a DPS overhall with a special focus on solo abilities.

    Beefed up pets, hugely improved interventions/contraventions for the damage portion (and our base nukes they are based off), improvements to our battle cleric options, improvements to our issuance (totem) heal, reduce or remove the healing penalty on vow, make avatar better, and give us some tank like mitigation on mob hits for mobs that hit sufficiently lower level using an ability akin to Pain Doesn't Hurt (aka reducing the healing requirement on low level mobs to help improve soloing).

    I would like to avoid doing huge ADPS/DPS aura type abilities. Please keep the classes unique. We don't need to compete with everyone on everything, just make what we have cool and useful and geared toward our class audience.
    Annastasya likes this.
  7. minimind Augur

    Disclaimer: I've never played a cleric. My only cleric is my trader. He became my trader after I figured out that, while clerics were often in demand, they're pretty boring to play. I don't know much about cleric play after level 60. /disclaimer

    I play with a cleric buddy probably 2-4 times per week. I think he started having a lot more fun when he got a nice 2HB and started meleeing/nuking in addition to healing. Seeing that transition of playstyle, I'm reminded of my favorite healing experience being from DCUO where DPSing is integral to healing.

    I'd like to see clerics encouraged to melee more with situational self-buff procs (only one can be on at a time) that scale with weapon damage (so as to further encourage the use of two-handers):
    • Proc #1 - Righteous Retribution
      • Physical damage to target (like hitting it with a 4000dmg 2HB)
      • Heal to target's target
      • Agro buff to target's target
    • Proc #2 - Righteous Condemnation
      • Undead nuke
      • Return Mana
    • Proc #3 - Righteous Cleansing
      • Magic nuke
      • Progressive self-buff. Every Nuke proc puts a counter on the cleric. Ten counters triggers...
        • PB AE heal
        • PB AE cure
    Also, all priest quick heals (single target, short cast, higher mana cost) should go to target's target if target is not a player character. I would understand if the more mana-efficient heals require targeting the PC to be healed, though.

    Just a suggestion from someone who knows very little about the topic.
    Skuz likes this.
  8. Nylrem Augur

    I don't believe spell haste is the answer, unless developers are going to change the way that it's done.
    Most 'big' spells are either 3.0s or longer cast time, with max redux already to 50% of their cast time, with worn mods + cleric regular spell haste, or they're fast cast, and can't be, without some kind of 'quick time' type thing, reduced further than what they are with worn mods.

    Quick time already hangs up spells now, with many issues. To the point that I know knights that have blocked it.

    For a spell haste type aDPS mod for clerics, it would have to bypass the 'max' hastened cast time for 3.0s and longer spells, to be 'good'. I am just guessing, but believe developers aren't really ready to go down that road.

    "A large number of things" tweaked to increase personal DPS is what I believe probably needs to be avoided. With developer time/resources not on the side of "a large number of" anything being done, I think we should try and laser beam focus what we believe should be done, and could be done in the given development timeframe and resources.

    Group divine avatar and battle frenzy is a good idea, to stay in the flavor of the class. However, their uptime is not good enough. Three minutes out of every nine, and 40 seconds out of every 15 minutes is just not enough to cut it, for adding good sustained aDPS for a group. It would have to be something that could have at least 70% ish uptime. Personally, I don't want something that needs consistently activated, like bard epic or fierce eye. I'd rather have a long lasting aura, to add the aDPS boost. Something that's not required to be constantly monitored and activated.

    At first, I thought a pet that was a copy of a healer merc would be a terrible idea...

    Personally, I want more DPS and aDPS. I think cleric healing, even in 'hard' group content, is super overpowered, and largely unnecessary.

    IMO, cleric just doesn't have the capability, even if had zero healing responsibilities, to DPS as well as they should be able to, or add to a group's DPS with abilities.

    A pet as a copy of a healer merc isn't a terrible idea, though, especially for lower/mid tier raid guilds that are shorthanded on healers. It could provide that much more 'oomph' to get them over some humps, if needed, and be able to be used in raids. A cleric's pet could potentially keep their group alive, while the cleric healed targets outside of group.

    For group play, it would possibly allow for a cleric to strictly DPS though, and while even though low DPS it is, it still would likely be comparable to a shaman or druid DPSing and healing at same time.

    It wouldn't be terrible for moloing as a lower level cleric either. Grab a melee DPS merc, and pet's heals, plus your intervention/contraventions should provide for some decent kill rates.

    The development time, I believe, would be fairly minimal, since mercs are already made, to make a copy/paste version of one, as a cleric pet.

    So, definitely not as bad of an idea as I at first thought...

    The premise that clerics are 3rd string healers in groups is not what I said or implied. There isn't a better healer, period, hands down. They are definitely 1st string healers.

    The problem is, and not just this expansion, but has been this way for at least the last 5 or 6 expansions, and understandably so, and I am sure will continue to be, is that you don't HAVE to have a 1st string healer, to complete group content.

    What clerics are, is 14th string DPS and aDPS.

    If a choice of a 2nd string healer (shaman or druid) is also 2nd string DPS/aDPS, which are you going to choose, if all you really need is a 3rd string (merc) healer?

    This is what happens: Guildy: "missions group starting, pst". You reply: "Want cleric?" Reply back: "Got (sham/dru toon), want to play your (dps class)?

    Or, and this is the real kicker, go start a heroic cleric, and try and level up to 100 ish, to group with current content people. Even killing light blues, healing a melee merc, because it's 3x more DPS than you are, you'd take 4 times longer to kill a mob than a solo tank would.

    DPS overhall I agree, is what is needed, but would likely be very time consumptive.

    I'm not sure what you mean by 'battle cleric options'? Are you referencing better/improved melee damage enhancements? Nuke damage enhancements? I'm unsure what you're meaning by this.

    IMO, whatever it is for DPS, it should start with a sustained fix, to either melee or nuke, or both, DPS.

    Issuance is currently a terrible spell. 5 minute cooldown on a spell is just ridiculous. Even if this was a 1 minute cooldown, it would still barely get used. It just needs replaced, by a fast casting, fast recast AE heal that also nukes the target's target.

    Even if Vow had zero healing penalty, it still doesn't do enough damage to make it worthwhile. It's like 5k DPS. Absolutely ludicrous vs todays mobs. It definitely has the ability to be a 'boost' needed though, if they were willing to remove the detriment to it, and very significantly (like 20x) increase it's damage.
  9. Nylrem Augur

    Procs are cool, and are great for low, minimal benefits, but they are garbage DPS, and don't scale, and can't be boosted by most things.

    Arms of holy wrath, sympathetic arms of holy wrath, sympathetic surge of ice and sympathetic strike of ice all on 2hb, sounds awesome, and are 'big' procs already.

    They still add garbage DPS for a cleric, and zero aDPS. Our undead nukes can (like 12% chance, and when crit, and when do proc, block all other's from proccing for 12 seconds) proc for almost 1.5 million damage. They're still terrible DPS. BECAUSE they cannot be affected by other boosts. Primary DPS should be able to be boosted by others' aDPS stuff, or it will never scale. Procs consistently get stagnated terribly, because they're not affected by other stuff, but still get 'average' upgrades.

    Procs are NOT the way to go, for added DPS.

    Quick heals going to target's target, like hybrid's heals currently do, would be awesome though, and possibly allow for throwing some nukes in-between heals more frequently, without the hassle of changing targets constantly. Personally I think all single target heals should do this, as a QoL thing, just as I believe all nukes, if targeted on the MT should nuke the MT's target. But, I also understand this may not be well received by many, and be an argument of 'dumbing down' the game.

    Mana efficiency though, for a cleric is unnecessary and really even shouldn't be a consideration for anything, when talking about healing. A cleric in appropriate gear almost cannot run out of mana healing, unless from death. DPSing, however, is completely different, and as it should be, IMO. Similar to druids. Healing, can go forever. DPSing though, costs.
    Raccoo likes this.
  10. Nylrem Augur

    The last several non-level increasing expansions, there have been very limited new spells/abilities/AA introduced per class, and not much more than 'standard' upgrades on the rest. Like 1 or 2 new things, max, per class.

    I would have to assume this next expansion is going to be similar.

    I think to come up with a consensus of what we'd like, and introduce them in a coherent and easy to implement manner, would probably be best.

    Give developers 4 or 5 ideas each for spells and AA, and let them choose. Assume they're only going to do 1 each, so whatever they are, they'd have to be significant, in order to put us in line with where we think we should be, in terms of DPS/aDPS.

    Personally, I don't believe it could easily be done with just 1 each new spell and AA, without that specific ability being super overpowered on its own, because we are currently so far behind where should be.

    A few other 'assumptions' I have:

    Assuming Dissident, Retort, and Divine Reaction getting 'standard' upgrades.
    Assuming several other, but as yet undetermined, AA are getting 'standard' upgrades.

    What are the options we would like to see implemented?

    It seems that most clerics agree that our standard, single target healing is good, where it is.

    I really like the idea of another tier of Focus: Syllable of Convalescence that allows Syllable to be an AE heal, with like 75' radius from us, when cast. I think it would put us on par with shaman, for raid AE healing, and hopefully, be fairly easy to implement.

    Primarily though, I think we should attempt to gain as much DPS/aDPS as possible, and if possible, ask for them to be included with upgrades already assuming they are going to do.

    So, for example, Curate's Retort upgrade:
    The reverse DS component, channeled mark, needs to be, instead of the 'standard' upgrade and 1,800hp ish per hit, more like 100k, each time the mob strikes the tank.

    Dissident Blessing upgrade:
    Standard upgrades to boost target's HP, and group heal, but then also allow it to nuke target's target for ~ 4 million hp. One cast every 60s, still crappy added average DPS, but better than nothing, and combined with forceful rejuv, would give a semblance of burst DPS.

    Divine Reaction upgrade:
    Any mob that casts AE that triggers Divine Reaction upgrade then receives (significant amount of damage - IMO, ~4 million hp nuke)

    Big boost to summoned pet, IMO, would help a ton, as well as a useful aDPS aura to replace our mitigation one.
  11. Crystilla Augur

    As a group cleric now since I no longer raid (and only have 2-3 expansion old boots for the little spell haste it still adds, visibles=TOV tier 2, non vis=GMM mostly), I can say that I often will get low (20's to 30's) on mana in content. But this is trio'ing (not full groups). Just adding that clarification to the above quote.
  12. Metanis Augur

    I don't mean to be Negative Nellie here but they didn't even acknowledge a single one of our posts for the ToV expansion let alone actually implement any of them. To be honest we'll probably have to scream bloody murder just to have our existing abilities correctly updated for another new expansion. From their point of view the cleric class isn't broke so why fix it?
    Pano likes this.
  13. bortage Augur

    give clerics the weapon stances aa starting at 85, i'm surprised this doesn't get suggested more often
    minimind and Wulfhere like this.
  14. Skuz Augur

    I like the D&D style "Battle Clerics" though I know not all are fans of that style I think that a plate class like cleric is quite suited to smacking the mob around & healing some through it's melee capabilities.

    Providing some more *group-desired* traits are very much needed to make Clerics attractive to groups without the old answer of just making mobs hit so damn hard only a cleric can keep a tank up - that solution is boring as heck.

    I don't think overhaste is the right answer but some form of Heavenly Proc they do adding damage to spells & melee for a short time boosting group damage so long as they are actively engaging the mob, a few cycling abilities that form a chain would be a good mechanic for them to have some personal DPS too.
    minimind likes this.
  15. Tucoh Augur

    Making Clerics in groups is pretty tough. The game has given a lot of survivability options to every class, and has handed out healing to many classes. Shamans have increased their healing a ton the last few years while both shamans and druids have had their utility and damage increased.

    Making clerics ideal priests in more groups probably means:
    1. More mobs that do AE damage to make the incredible group healing capabilities of the cleric more valuable.
    2. A reduction in the power of the shaman's Luminary's synergy. Making the healing after crit and having max hits of 1 is probably about right.
    [16879/49721] Luminary's Synergy III
    Max Hits: 3 Matching Spells
    1: Increase Healing Taken by 21600 (v394, Before Crit)

    3. A reduction in the strength of the shaman's reckless line. Probably involving a linked cooldown for all the reckless spells and maybe an increase in mana cost.

    #2 and #3 would be a huge nerf to the way I run my box group and would be hated by the shamans, but it's overdue. #1 would make the game much harder, and disliked by a lot of the game's population.

    At this point it's probably easier to just blur the lines a bit more and give clerics more DPS and ADPS. A broad increase in DD damage, and handing out a cast time buff while fixing the "Decrease Casting Times" bug that Quick Time has and having a buff that decreases the global cooldown would be cool.
  16. matouoli Lorekeeper

    humm ,coming from someone who is using is _ boxer -------------->> easy mode
    you know boxing without the use of that 3rd party would make that game ** much harder ** .for you......

    another call for nerfs, , ................
  17. bortage Augur

    At this point in the game they're probably pretty hesitant to rebalance classes using strategies that could be the last straw for people quitting, campaign for buffs for yourself not nerfs for others imo

    I'm of the opinion that since the other healers provide pretty significant dps buffs for the group, clerics should probably have the best personal dps
    Tucoh likes this.
  18. Skuz Augur

    I think that the other classes having more options on things they bring besides healing is a valid point, making Cleric a more desirable class for groups would logically also need to follow that pattern.

    I am not sure just best personal DPS alone is a good route myself, Shaman & Druid provide some impressive utility as well as DPS so I think Cleric needs some help on multiple fronts.

    DPS for Clerics from casting needs an upgrade but I think their DPS from Melee needs a lot of love and should be a replacement for casting dps rather than working alongside it so that clerics can be useful at range or up close but not both simultaneously, maybe as another poster suggested weapon stances could factor into that.

    Of the 3 priests I think Clerics should be doing the most Melee DPS by far but that their casting DPS should not be the best - let the Shaman & Druid have that bun-fight in my view.

    Boost up cleric melee not via their autoattack but with some ability chain they need to execute to perform large Holy Strikes to make their melee interesting but it shouldn't require very very tight timing to execute as they may need to heal inbetween stages of that chain, let each stage place a "builder" self buff on the cleric & Stage 1 ability places a buff on the cleric which has say 30 charges with a duration of say 60 seconds when they swing with autoattack a charge fires off giving them a decent damage extra hit.
    Stage 2 ability requires stage 1 & removes stage 1 & it's buff has 15 charges & lasts 30 seconds but does more damage than stage 1
    Stage 3 ability requires stage 2 & removes stage 2 has only 5 charges lasts 15 seconds & does some serious damage

    What ADPS would work best for Cleric though is the tricky thing, all three priests do have a proc buff, each helps mitigate some damage, Shaman have slow, Druid have the ac & atk debuff, Clerics have...well nothing on the debuff front besides a fairly weak reverse ds that doesn't help that much so I think that's where I would amp up their adps, give the Cleric a Debuff that can increase all melee damage and tie that in with their reverse ds so that it becomes much more useful to groups & not simply slapped on to help with mobs that have damage shields.
    minimind likes this.
  19. matouoli Lorekeeper

    @ skuz , some interesting idea , instead of calling nerfs on other class , you trying to find a way to improve cleric * desirability * in group game , and this thread is for that .
  20. Raccoo Augur

    Clerics version isn't the DS, it's Shining Aegis. Ask a tank which of those three they'd want if they had a choice, and I'd bet it would be Shining (most tanks will run with a slow/cripple belt anyway). Shining does stuns, heals and mitigation.
    Tucoh and Szilent like this.

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