Classes locked to expansions is bad for TLP players

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Skuz, May 8, 2022.

  1. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Keeping the added-on classes tied to their original expansions on TLP creates a built-in social disadvantage for their dedicated players which the devs do not appear to grasp or acknowledge in any meaningful way despite that being at odds with knowing that their game is built upon the tenets of social play.

    What keeping classes tied to expansions creates is a repeating of the situation that took place on live, with some players being at a distinct disadvantage versus their peers, aka the original 14 classes, of course there is the argument that they can "just play something else" until those classes unlock, which is a fair point but ignores a lot of practicalities, such as if you are a raider your guild may have an established need for your "pre BST/BER" class that locks you into it on a moral/team level, baggage that nobody readily accepts & which you may end up feeling resentful towards.

    This situation is often different on TLP, there are likely to be plenty of people who have played nothing else, who may well have not played EQ prior to these classes being in the game.
    It is certainly accepted that TLP is not a "Classic EQ Purist" vision of a TLP, such as P99 enthusiats often lament is not offered by Darkpaw who also want original EQ XP rates, loot left on corpses, corpse-runs, and a bunch of other measures that were also not really good for the game as a whole & which cannot now be supported by code.

    The last time a new class joined EQ was 2004 with the release of GoD, EverQuest has now been around for 22 years, 17 years since that last new class was added and Berserkers have now been a part of EverQuest for more than 3 times as many years as they were not, for Beastlords they've been around an even higher percentage of that time.

    The ideology that has been maintained by DarkPaw appears to be that these classes are considered "Expansion Content" only and should not be separated from it.
    I feel it is long overdue to relegate that way of thinking to the dustbin & to value the players of those classes just as highly as the players of the original 14 classes.

    Darkpaw, by all means have a "Special Ruleset" server which retains the current class-unlock system of Beastlords being tied to Luclin & Berserkers tied to GoD if you want, I think you will find that there will only be a very tiny audience for that now after these classes have been part of EQ for so many years.

    Please consider these two classes as part of EverQuest's Core systems, not as expansion content, they've been around long enough to have earned that, and their players have supported EQ for a long time, maybe support them back.
  2. Manafasto Augur

    I agree with this Skuz message. BST and BZK are not just expansion content, they are EQ.
    Vlahkmaak and Stymie like this.
  3. Branntick Augur

    Wholeheartedly agree. By the next round of TLPs it would be dope if some holes were patched up with trainers and whatnot so that every class could be available at launch.
    Vlahkmaak likes this.
  4. Installing Updates Lorekeeper

    It will ruin the roleplay factor for people who are excited to play on Yelinak but are anxiously and patiently waiting until October 8, 2025 to roll their Wood Elf Beastlord and Froglok Monk duo, but it would be nice see these race/class combinations added earlier. Call of the Forsaken is so far into the future that it might as well be infinity.
    Vlahkmaak likes this.
  5. Frid New Member

    I agree 100%. These classes are so old that they don't feel expansion content anymore, just Everquest. It's not like there are corpseruns and hell levels anyway, it's not a true classic experience. I think they should make all classes available from the start from now on.
    Vlahkmaak likes this.
  6. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    I'm actually okay with races & race/class combinations (like Luclin Gnome Knights) being tied to expansions because race-change potions exist.

    Class-change potions do not exist & probably never will, or ever should.

    At least with classes all in at classic players can start whatever class they want & a later race-change purchase will be an extra item they sell later on.

    I think the "Purists" who adamantly want to have a classic start with just the 14 original classes are a small audience by now anyway, but the option of doing a TLP for them still exists, perhaps there could be ways to offer them a TLP with more of that "Classic EQ" feel but I have a hunch most of that crowd are already on P99 green anyway so it would be too small a population to justify its own TLP, most of us have moved on.
  7. Ghost Of Fippy Augur

    Can’t be done.

    You don’t just flip the switch for the other class/races from future expansions. Those expansions are where that code is written for them. And only by releasing that expansion does that code become active. DB would have to completely reprogram the classic code for you to play them before their expansion would release.
  8. Manafasto Augur

    The purist if there is any should not be on the TLP's anyways. The game has vastly changed due to QoL changes that do not mimic what they remember or want anyways. Skuz is correct if they want a product near the actual release as possible they would venture towards p99. It is time beyond time to include all classes at launch of any TLP.
  9. Installing Updates Lorekeeper

    They'd have to activate the expansions, but block all the zones from those expansions.
  10. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Past devs have already stated that they could do it, it's a design choice they made due to the ideology they hold of these classes being expansion content.

    Some code changes (not full re-writes) would be needed to make trainers for these classes available but it is nowhere near as big a problem as a few forum users make it out to be.

    Nope, they wouldn't have to go that far.

    The devs have tools that allow them to set the expansion release order, and npc unlock order, if they wanted to they could even unlock the expansions in any order they wanted on TLP, though that would not be a logical thing to do for almost all of them.

    For example, if they wanted to launch LDoN with Classic they could, they could unlock LoY prior to PoP if they wanted too.

    NPC have switches that can be set to the calendar system, meaning they can be made available independently of their expansion or to coincide with it and not even require manual changes, though these often require zone-repops to take effect on a online server.
  11. Arclyte Augur

    I don't know anyone that would be against having zerkers and buttlords on classic launch
    ObservingOak, Vlahkmaak and Skuz like this.
  12. Tweakfour17 Augur

    Isn't that already the case? NPCs don't spawn but the zones exist and are active hence how some cheaters get their PoK traveler achievement well before PoP, the zone exists and is active its just inaccessible.
  13. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    If Yelinak wants to be different giving that server all of the classes in classic would be one interesting new spin they could give it at least, would not be messing around with any of the things people currently seem to object to.

    And I'm saying that as someone who sees one of the selling points of Vaniki being access to all classes from the start, because I see the two player-populations as mainly going after different goals.
    Ragnoruk, Stymie and Ariana like this.
  14. Ariana Augur

    Fully behind the idea of making all classes core game content. Personally no issue with races being unlocked either. Like the op if you agree to give this some visibility to devs, they sort by likes.
    Skuz likes this.
  15. Ariana Augur

    While I would love to play a berserker at tlp launch, the rest of the crap coming with vaniki is making Yelinak relatively more appealing.
    Vlahkmaak likes this.
  16. Lineater Augur

    Never say never but I don’t see this happening. I doubt it’s about “ideolology” or “purism” or whatever. It’s about the amount of work it would take to implement. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze for DPG. Sounds like a lot of work for…how much gain, really? Off the top of my head, completely reworking itemization for every previous expansion. Are there class-only gear sets for these classes in classic/kunark/velious? Conflicts with epic 1.0’s and out of era zones/mobs. And then there’s the arguably bigger issue of potential balance issues.
  17. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Yelinak is essentially intended to be a vanilla server, relaxed truebox, no foci until luclin, "progression XP", raid-currency multipliers, increased loot drops, and all classes available from classic are all things I feel should be a part of that core vanilla TLP ruleset in 2022 & moving forwards.
    Ragnoruk, Manafasto and Ariana like this.
  18. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Its 100% about ideology.

    While the work involved is not trivial I believe it is totally within the acceptable limits of time & resources required to achieve it and would be a net benefit to the game.
    Stymie likes this.
  19. Lineater Augur

    So do you have a source for this? A quote or something? You yourself said it “appears” to be about ideology. Now it’s “100%?”

    Did you find some new information in the three hours between posts?
  20. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Nothing that concrete sorry, more about subtle references that I have picked up over time than any one overt expression that this was the case.

    If you think I am making that up as a result I'm not going to feel insulted, I wish I did have something more tangible to support my beliefs I could show you.