So, we're now well into GOD and it looks like monks pretty much own other classes, sometimes putting out silly dps numbers (2k +). Can we expect the trend to continue into OOW?
Not going to downplay the fact that Monks perform well although they aren't the only ones topping parses regularly. Would you care to provide parses where you've seen Monks parse 2k+ DPS?
It depends upon fight length, gear/aa, raid #'s of classes, and specific things popped. Also just plain rng. In general though, at top gear levels, monks are probably still on top overall, rogues may have moved up some vs. monks (espec on longer fights), wizards appear to have gained on both (but still behind), necros have started appearing in top 10's at times, etc. I'd say that beastlords are doing better than I expected at times (as are wars) but I'm not sure I'd call them great, sk's can still sometimes make the top 10 on specific fights every so often, and the jury is still out on berserkers because they're still really undergeared. Rangers appear to have stayed about the same relatively (dps gains but not enough to really change where they parse - usually #3 melee and in the wiz mix), and I don't have enough Mage data to say really (maybe I'd say that they tend to fluctuate around Wizards - resists & pet friendliness dependent).
Spent 5sec looking in a log and this popped up - [Tue Jul 25 13:20:11 2017] Superdeath tells the raid, 'Ixt Kial Ivesi in 42s, 1002k @23850sdps --- Zama 73k@1745sdps (1929dps in 38s) [7.32%] --- Malaki 57k@1364sdps (1684dps in 34s) [5.72%] --- Qelyn + pets 36k@856sdps (998dps in 36s) [3.59%] --- Superdeath 36k@846sdps (1076dps in 33s) [3.55%] --- Lateralus 35k@827sdps (891dps in 39s) [3.47%] --- Kaponen 32k@771sdps (809dps in 40s) [3.23%] --- Ling 32k@763sdps (866dps in 37s) [3.2%] --- Danto 31k@746sdps (895dps in 35s) [3.13%] --- Dunkfunk 31k@741sdps (865dps in 36s) [3.11%] --- Gibartik 30k@725sd ...' That's Shd/Wiz/Mnk/Nec/Rog/Mnk fyi. The point isn't to illustrate a HT or MB, it's that you can cherry-pick any parse to show insane numbers. Anything is possible in a short enough burst, and with full buffs + group setup, gear/aa, speedfocus, 7th year, and DF, I have no trouble believing a monk can burst at 2k. I will say that of the other parses I glanced through, with fight lengths typically in the 100-500sec range, that monks tend to land in the 600-1100dps range. As I said, shorten it enough and I have no trouble believing someone hit 2k dps in like a 20-30sec parse.
Sorting through 298 parses of 100k+ HP with encounters ranging from 13 sec + I managed to find these melee: War 15s 3801DPS Monk 20s 3201DPS Monk 31s 2868DPS Monk 16s 2048DPS SK 37s 2012DPS Funny enough, the % of Total usually belonged to a Rogue. I'd say 5 / 298 breaking the 2k DPS (melee) is quite low overall with just over half at 60% being Monks. The Monks, Rangers and Rogues tend to congregate at the top comfortably. My request, however, stemmed more from curiosity how the Monks Coppercoz raids with are performing compared to the ones I raid with.
The huge monk DPS burst is a combination of 3 discs/AA's combined (well 4, if you use Intensity of the Resolute vet AA, which just makes it even more deadly) . Not like you get to use that every 5 min. More like every 30-40mins or so. If you parse a monk within a 30-40 sec fight doing hitting those discs, you'll likely see 2k+ DPS. But as Wycca says, you can cut out some sections of a fight in the parser to promote whatever dps class you want on top. For OoW I don't know. I can't remember what expansions unlocks which monk disciplines compared to some pretty powerful Rogue discs starting at lv 70 in OoW?
The next major monk AA/disc/etc boost is DoN with Dragon Claw and then PoR with Heel as a 3rd burst disc. Rogues get Frenzied Stabbing in OoW as a 3rd burst disc. Monks should* be back on top in DoN if I had to make a guess - the claw line is pretty powerful. That is, assuming Rogues do in fact end up on top in OoW.
My guess is Rogues, being equally geared with monks, should be able to do better BURST DPS than monks in OoW. As for sustained damage, Im not sure about. Looking at parses, basic auto attack damage always accounts for the lions share of any melee DPS. Almost always more than backstab damage. The monk 2.0 JUST BASED ON NUMBERS, is a higher RATIO weapon than the Rogue 2.0 (presumably because this was before they had unmarried base weapon damage and backstab damage). At the top gear level, I imagine Rogues and monks will do about the same, but until both classes get there, I think with the Rogue level 70 Disc, Frenzied Stabbing, Rogues will be on top.
Thanks for posting Max. Interesting. I don't really parse enough to toss out a ton more of our numbers, and I mostly just searched for the top 10 lists that end up in gu. I'm also not sure how our guilds compare, as we sometimes have 1pm open world raids, split-primetime raids, and full attendance raids, and as you might imagine, that varies everything a ton! % of total is interesting re: your Rogues. We're in a situation right now in our guild where we're short on melee focus items and some weapon upgrades (plus some dmg augs). It happens to work out between the weapon & aug situation for Monks vs. Rogues combined with melee focus drop rates and who won (Bobby & I have Fero3, he has Cleave3 also), plus attendance (we have 2x the # of monks vs rogues), that us Rogues have ended up with an advantage and some very good parses. Our rogues overall, due to the dmg aug situation in LDoN+GOD, tend to have slightly better dmg augs than the monks, and due to the weapon situation (2 great daggers + a ton of great offhands = relatively easy to get for our Rogues vs. Monks fighting over Mindreaper + poor Cyno handwraps drop rates). Despite this slight advantage, our Monks still lead on plenty of parses, especially bursts - it's just somewhat noticeable that our Rogues have improved a bit relatively & there's some good parses (Tunat is notable). Some of our Tunat parses (note that these are all splits with like 25-30ppl, and the longer one is likely tunat phase1+2) - Tunat`Muram Cuu Vauax in 403s, 3405k @8449sdps --- Rog 268k@665sdps (676dps in 396s) [7.87%] --- Monk 254k@631sdps (647dps in 393s) [7.47%] --- Monk 227k@564sdps (574dps in 396s) [6.68%] --- Wizard 227k@564sdps (598dps in 380s) [6.67%] --- Rog 224k@556sdps (562dps in 399s) [6.58%] --- Mag 215k@535sdps (544dps in 396s) [6.33%] --- Rng 209k@519sdps (527dps in 397s) [6.14%] --- Monk 199k@495sdps (502dps in 397s) [5.85%] Tunat`Muram Cuu Vuaux in 547s, 3385k @6189 --- Rog 255k@(466 in 547s) --- Monk 232k@(426 in 546s) --- Rog 223k@(408 in 546s) --- Monk 209k@(382 in 547s) --- Monk 207k@(382 in 542s) --- Monk 183k@(335 in 546s) --- Shd 153k@(280 in 546s) --- Wiz 148k@(276 in 534s) --- Wiz 146k@(284 in 515s) --- Rng 140k@(259 in 542s) Tunat`Muram Cuu Vuaux in 639s, 4035k @6315 --- Rog 287k [7.1%] --- Mnk 268k [6.64%] --- Mnk 257k [6.38%] --- Rog 249k [6.17%] --- Rog 238k [5.9%] --- Monk 197k [4.87%] --- Monk 192k [4.76%] --- Rng 188k [4.65%] --- Monk 183k [4.53%] --- Rng 153k [3.79%]' Tunat`Muram Cuu Vauax in 802s, 3335k @4158 --- Monk 274k [8.21%] --- Monk 254k [7.61%] --- Rog 251k [7.53%] --- Rog 240k [7.2%] --- Rog 225k [6.76%] --- Monk 193k [5.78%] --- Rng 189k [5.68%] --- Rng 189k [5.66%] --- Monk 179k [5.38%] --- Monk 128k [3.84%]'
It continues throughout the game. Monks and bards remain the most OP classes. Monks do the DPS rogues, berzerkers and wizards do yet they have far higher AC returns than rogues, berzerkers and wizards, they are not arc dependent like rogues and they have far more utility than rogues, berzerkers and wizards. Don't try to make sense of it, there is no sense. Monks have always been one of the most OP classes, druids become an almost useless class post PoP.
Our latest Tunat parse. Note the Monk on the top is the only one in the guild with Fero2 and Cleave3. This is also not a split raid, ~50 people (not sure if we were full that night). /GU Combined: Tunat`Muram Cuu Vauax in 357s, 3246k @9094 --- Monk 242k [7.45%] --- Monk 184k [5.66%] --- Rogue 158k [4.87%] --- Ranger 142k [4.37%] --- Rogue 135k [4.15%] --- Rogue 125k [3.86%] --- Berserker 114k [3.52%] --- Ranger 114k [3.5%] --- Wizard 110k [3.39%] --- Necromancer + pets 107k [3.29%] I think the lack of melee foci and good weapons can have a HUGE factor in determining what class ends up on top. The monk at the top is using the two-hander from High Priest, not Mindreaper+Cyno fists (we have had bad luck with the club and fistwraps as well)
The monk vs rogue thing is pretty straight forward TBH. Once an hour with destructive force monks are the clear winner. My geared monk with a high priest 2hander on test was parsing around 2600 with destructive + speed focus, and that's without 7th vet AA. It's really ridiculous. On a reasonable length fight (say 3ish minutes) with no destructive force, Monks and rogues are probably around equal depending on RNG. Monks might be a little higher on average due to having 3 discs instead of two, but it's probably pretty close. In a sustained environment, I'd say rogues are definitely superior. Our sustain dps is super high right now. I can see it being possible for rogues to sustain 950-1k dps atm. On topic, in omens who the heck knows. There's so much extra Adps being added in omens that your group make up and the support classes' ability to sync their clicks with yours will make more of a difference than your class in terms of melee. It's hard to say where casters are going to end up. Aside from Wizards who have been relying on out of era crit AA, most casters have been getting blown away by melee. Necros do get their 2.0 though, so maybe they'll see a resurgence.
EQ wasn't 7 years old by the time Gates came out . Currently all veteran awards are granted at the time of GoDs release, each ability isn't tied to the specific expansion at which they were first introduced to the game. To do so is likely more work than it is worth for the devs.
*nods* Sorry to have derailed a bit there, but I was curious at seeing it listed as a burn ability this early.
Sorry, I was going by parses posted in raidsay. I'll start parsing again and post. My experiences with our monks are similar to those already posted. Monks seem to do about 600 dps if they don't touch a discipline. That's probably just shy of what I do on my rogue, but I've only got cleave3 thus far with mid GOD raid weapons. Most parses I see are raid targets and the monks are doing around 1100 dps, but the 2k+ parses while rare, standout. My burns on my rogue rarely get above 900, unless the fight is real short.
I know a monk that can sustain 900-1k DPS in a group setting while tanking. In fact, the Monks DPS is actually HIGHER when tanking, probably due to a combination of Return Kick, Double Riposte, Strikethrough and Damage shield. 600 DPS can be done as a solo monk with no discs and a haste potion at this point. Add in a GoD weapon or two and you are hitting 750-800 consistently. Honestly I'd like to see rogues do more damage. Monks can pull very well, and can tank group content almost as well if not better in some situations than actual tanks. Soloing is also something monks do better than rogues. Rogues go get bodies and find traps, thats about it. They should be pumping out a TON of DPS.
I don't think making rogues do even more dps is the answer. I can already sustain around 860 dps with no discs, and I don't have a DDoN. We're already ridiculous, I don't think making us ludicrous would help things I think monks are most just overall way too powerful. Heck, rogues probably do too much damage in this era as well, but monks take it to a new level. It is a little imbalanced, particularly when you consider all of their other strengths as a class, but I don't and wouldn't expect any sort of balancing to ever take place. It's just not worth the headache. At some point, monks fall off and fall off hard, but who knows when that'll be.
My numbers were based on raid targets. If we're talking about group/raid trash mobs, then those dps numbers are considerably higher depending on group make up. I agree with Glowerss, but it would be nice if rogue poisons were worthwhile.
