[Class Raid Roles] - Clarification please

Discussion in 'The Newbie Zone' started by Random_internet_guy, Aug 4, 2014.

  1. Random_internet_guy New Member

    Hey people,

    So i've been away from the raid game a long time and lost sight of what each class really brings to the table and what they do on raids. People tell me that the raid game and the group game is miles apart, so i thought i'd come here for some clarification on who does what on raids. I would appreciate any elaborate answer you give. I'll put my own comments at each one, just to see if i got something half right. The ones with * is the ones im particular interested in.

    • Warrior - Raid Tank. Weaker in group game because lack of utility and self sustain, but absolutely awesome in a raid scenario
    • Paladin - Prefered knight for raids, as they brings splash heals and cures
    • Shadowknight - Prefered group tanks with their sustained heals and pulling capability. Solid raid offtank
    • Cleric - Heals, heals, heals. Bring some utility in terms of pulling but primarily raid healers
    • Shaman - Buffers, Slowers, epic clicks and some dps. Decent at most, but that's it
    • Druid - Eh...Ports, debuffs, heals, mediocre dps. I really don't know
    • *Enchanter - This class really intrigues me, but i have no idea what they do in raids. Debuff, mezzing, stun, buffing. What are they capable of? (Both in group and raid game)
    • Wizard - "Point-and-click-death-machines" with ports. Top tier DPS
    • Necromancer - Same as wizards, but way more complicated and without the ports
    • Magician - Pet toys, rods, t2 dps
    • Monk - Top tier DPS. Pulling (?), can offtank in a pinch
    • Rogue - Top tier DPS. Seems everyone want one these days
    • Berserker - Top tier DPS. I know very little about them aside from big axes and much burst
    • Ranger - T2 dps. Ranged DPS class that is higher DPS in melee. Buffs and cannon fodder?
    • Beastlord - T2/T1 DPS, buffs, mana battery
    • *Bard - Songs, diversity, epic. Are bards just /melody and afk on raids today? I must say that bards have interest too, as i like the notion of being able to play reckless (in group game) and get away with it with a single press of fade. But what do they do on raids? They seem great in group game and boring on raids.
    Mind you, i am not trying to start an internet war on who lacks what and who's better at something. I am just trying to grasp raid roles of each class.

    Thank you in advance.
  2. Krit_Bertoxx Lorekeeper

    "Shaman - Buffers, Slowers, epic clicks and some dps. Decent at most, but that's it."

    Shaman are generally the preferred healing class for melee groups, though they can cover casters and tanks too. Plus twin casting AE heals is nothing to shrug at! :)

    Enchanter can make or break some raids, mez/stun/charm allow them to make ease of some tough situations. That said not all raids require more then 1 so it's a niche.

    Bards, we'll, everyone wants one...
  3. Brohg Augur

    Tanks tank. Warriors have unparalleled single-target agro, and edge out the other two in surviving single-target damage, given adequate support. Paladins do a lot of curing. Shadowknights' have the broadest suite of utility abilities, and specialize in tanking multiple mobs.

    Clerics are the healing class with the best tank support capabilities. Their actual-healing spells are technically stronger than shm/dru, but that's frequently meaningless since any heal that lands before a character dies is good, and big chunks of the big crit heals from any of the core three healing classes (pal/rng/bst all have relevant heals, too) will be cut short by a tank's max hp. Like the two to follow, it's the "secondary" abilities that define clerics. They have melee guards of several varieties, death wards, pre-cast triggering heals, heals that multiply innately when rescuing is needed, and protective auras. Since supporting the tank is key to beating raids, clerics are key to beating raids.

    Shaman are the healers with the best melee dps support. Melee dps groups without a shaman will not perform to their potential. Slowing is a much less impactful ability than it was in the past, but shm do retain the best versions of that debuff. Shaman do not run out of mana.

    Druids are the healers with the best caster dps support. When aligned with savvy wizards & magicians, the results are impressive. They have the strongest package of mob debuffs, and when heals aren't eating all their time can turn in a surprisingly respectable damage burn.

    Enchanters in raids do what enchanters in groups do. They mez things that are mezzable, charm things that are charmable, slow anything that a shaman hasn't gotten to (then justifiably chew out the shaman), and provide excellent caster dps support. Enchanter's own dps is a lot more "real" a thing than back in the day, so they're very much expected to produce on that front as well.

    Caster dps basically range along a spectrum of fight duration. Wizards get eclipsed by magicians give way to necromancers as things go on. Wizards and magicians generally have the best AE damage when raids call for that.

    Melee dps have to Voltron up with their abilities boosting each other to really go nuts, and each performs somewhat differently within their idioms. Rogues have positional requirements, berserker dps is all about discs, etc. The top spot balance-wise flexes with expansions, event mechanics, what have you. The one thing that's consistent is that the player who cares the most about producing the biggest numbers - will.

    Bards, in raids, are personified multipliers. Want to tank better? Group with the bard, here's half a dozen songs, gain 1k AC and an agro proc. Want to melee dps better? Group with the bard, here's half a dozen different songs, gain 10% overhaste, some crit mod, a bunch of +atk and a big ol' damage proc. Want to caster dps (most particularly necro) better? Group with the bard, blah blah etc. Bard personal dps isn't extraordinary, but since they are one of the premier dps boosters, they're frequently grouped with all the other premier dps boosters, with nice result.

    Obiziana and guado like this.
  4. Qest T. Silverclaw Augur

    That's mostly correct. Charm is usually frowned upon, as if the Enchanter dies, the raid has an unexpected add to deal with, and the confusion of "Is that going to be recharmed?"

    We also stun trash that's stunable, runes for defense, aggro control, and we rebuff the rezzed. Sometimes we even off-tank/rampage tank, or kite...though I suppose most classes can end up kiting in some situations!

    What an Enchanter actually does varies by the situation and the Enchanter.
  5. Random_internet_guy New Member

    Thanks a lot for the reply guys.

    Not that i do not appreciate your anwers, but i'd love more input from others with their pov.
  6. Phrett Augur

    Here's melee dps in a nutshell as of right now

  7. ~Mills~ Augur

    It changes based on what the dev team at the time feels. So pick a class you enjoy for multiple reasons as most likely one, two or even most of the reason you play a particular class might be removed, reduced or changed on a whim years after the fact because it was someone else's pet peeve.
    Wayylon likes this.
  8. Ratbo Peep Augur

    True, Rangers do the best DPS now with melee (since Bosqueaker's Disc arrived)
    Buffs and Aupice are still used most of the time.
    Raid geared Rangers make viable back-up healers too. I keep the MTO on my ETW at all times.
    And in specific events we have situational uses.
    In "Vile Oak" we can use Arrows and Fire on the Molar twins, and in the 2nd part we can do Archery DPS from within the man-traps.
    We could do more in certain events...... :)
    -Rat
  9. LizEriadoc New Member

    SHM - what they are capable of and what they do on raids are two vastly different things. On raids, they heal and provide attributed DPS to melee groups, as well as Slow, Malo, and Pathosis. They'll occasionally be asked to do something additional, but rarely are they tasked to full capacity. That said, I echo what the poster above said - twincasted raid-wide heals are a joy.

    ENC - Well, I'll give you an example of a boring raid for ENC - RoF ToV. There's nothing there that can be CC'ed, aside from some mobs that can be root parked, and as Qest said, charming is usually frowned upon or forbidden at raids. So what's left to do? Well, on any given boss, I'll do tash, cripple, deep sleep, ethereal manipulation, and a crippling DoT, some of which need to be refreshed accordingly. Occasionally, I'll end up being the one that gets slow on the mob as well. I coordinate with the tank rotation for the proper time to do Mental Contortion. I keep the raid force buffed with C and haste, of course, but perhaps just as importantly, spell absorption buffs on the entire raid. I run auras that benefit my party (usually caster group), coordinate with burns by putting up Illusions of Grandeur, Chromatic Haze, and 3rd spire, and occasionally even return some mana to the group. I participate in burns, and while I am by no means a powerful enchanter, I routinely parse in the 24K-ish range for DPS on bosses there (higher on group bosses), despite doing all these other tasks during the fight. Occasionally, I'm called upon to blur a mob or do friendly stasis on someone who grabbed aggro at an inopportune time. I am occasionally called upon to be sort of a faux healer with my runes on tanks.

    When you go to a raid on which CC is required or even helpful, your role increases. There are raids where one ENC is enough, but there are also plenty where having a few around is a good idea. Some of those capabilities are extremely helpful to bordering on critical (deep sleep on certain mobs, mental contortion, IoG, for starters).
  10. Sheaffer Augur

    Okay, let me take a shot. Since the thread is titled "raid roles" I'm going to mostly stick to that.

    Warrior - Primary raid tank. Going to tank the big boss...somewhat because they are best for it and somewhat out of legacy (if they aren't tanking the big boss, why even have them on the raid?) Tank wonderfully in groups.
    Shaman - Absolutely necessary for a melee dps group. Other than that, buff heal and slow.
    Druid - Absolutely necessary for caster dps group. Also has wonderful attack debuffs
    Bard - Essential for a melee dps group, but yes, like you said highly boring. Probably the most boring class on a raid.
    Paladin - Most secretly OP class in the game
    Shadowknight - They were underrated...then overrated...now probably back to underrated.
    Enchanter - Absolutely necessary for a caster dps group. CC comes into play on some raids, on some it doesn't. Sometimes just easier to off tank. Also can do pretty solid dps on their own.
    Ranger - Highly desired on raids for auspice of the hunter...a buff which is basically god mode for the entire raid for 30 seconds(1 minute?) Aside from that, the class I am 10x less likely to invite than any other to a group because I think a disproportionate number of them suck(don't cast spells, won't melee, think they should be using bow 24/7 and nothing else even though it's demonstrably worse dps)
    Zerk - Probably most niche class in the game. You are good at one thing and one thing only. But you are really good at that thing.

    I'd rank DPS like this
    T1 - Wiz Zerk Rog
    T1a - Nec Monk
    T2 - Ranger Mage Beastlord
    T3 - Enchanter Druid Shadowknight Warrior Paladin
    T4 - Shaman
    T8- Cleric

    Losing a bard in a good dps group is just as bad if not worse than losing one of the dpsers themselves.

    Couple stray thoughts


    I find it very unlikely a mage is going to catch up to a wizard on a duration parse unless the wizard gets very unlikely.
    After rangers, I think necros are the class most likely to be manned by a crappy player although I have absolutely no evidence for this.
    A bad wizard will be more effective than a bad player of any other class
    If you want to see who an enchanter's favorite people in the guild , put him in a group with a mage necro and wizard and see when he uses his ADPS stuff.
    The game is largely past the point where people desire specific classes and in general just want archetypes. I don't care what kind of tank you are...just come tank this for me. I don't care if you are a druid shaman or cleric...come heal this. Wizard? mage? Potato potahto come Nuke this.

    The biggest cliche on the board is "its not the class its the player" but it could not be more accurate. A good druid will outdps a bad monk any day. You would be shocked how bad some of the bad players of this game are.
    Separomaturi, Wayylon and Brohg like this.
  11. Archaelin New Member

    So is raid boss pulling and/or splitting a thing of the past for bards and monks?
  12. Riou EQResource


    Pulling hasn't been required in like 10+ years :p
  13. Wayylon Augur

    That's hilarious Rangers have a reputation as being bad players...

    Honestly in my opinion that award would go to a high percentage of tank classes.
  14. Sirene_Fippy Okayest Bard

  15. Brohg Augur

    I echo Sheaffer, good players who work hard at maximizing their characters' potential appear to be more uncommon among rangers than among many other classes, and the difference is night & day. A ranger who makes full use of spell bar and melee is pretty fantastic; one who doesn't is decidedly meh. I think rangers' broad utility, relative independence, and strong fantasy flavor troping makes them attractive to - dare we say it? - dirty casuals.
  16. onyuyan Augur

    Here's the list from the point of view of a raiding mage:

    Tanks: Basically they keep aggro on stuff and don't die

    Warrior - tanks the boss. He has to maintain aggro and not die. In a group warriors are also viable tanks with support (no self healing).

    Paladin - solid offtank that also provides heals and splash (cures). Strong group tanks with stuns/heals.

    Shadowknight - solid offtank with good AoE aggro abilities. Strong group tank because of life taps.

    Healers: Basically they heal/rez

    Cleric: strongest healer, the ones who will keep the main tank alive. Indispensable on raids but in the group game they lack some utility of the other healers. It's rare their abilities are required.

    Shaman: Malos mob (with *spell* malo), does some less important debuffing stuff, maybe some melee ADPS/buffs and some heals or something. Did I mention spell Malo? :p

    Druid: Arguably 2nd best caster ADPS class. They use WS (if no enchanter), skin to seedlings, and Black Wolf. Also keeps me alive... And maybe some other stuff.

    Support Classes: They, ya know, support :p

    Enchanter: Some enchanters do CC stuff depending on raid mechanics. They debuff too and can do some other stuff. But really they run MR, IoG, Third Spire, Chromatic Haze, Twincast Aura, and all that good stuff.

    Bard: Sings... Can do some CC and ADPS.

    Caster DPS: Does DPS with spells... From a distance...

    Wizard: Excellent burst DPS with decent sustained. Definitely T1 DPS.

    Necromancer: Best sustained DPS, but generally single mob encounters aren't long enough in CotF for them to really shine (there are a couple raids).

    Magician: I really don't see us as T2 DPS. Our burst is obviously behind a few classes but with ADPS we're certainly competitive outside of burst fights.

    Melee DPS: Rogues seem to have an edge right now. But otherwise I don't know enough to comment beyond they do DPS.

    Unless you're doing really high end raiding (maybe top 5-10 guilds in the world), you'll see a lot of people in supposedly good classes DPS-wise that suck. Any of the DPS classes (hell, even enchanters sometimes) can trounce most of these people regardless of their class. You'll only see a difference once you get close to the theoretical max DPS of your class, or if your support is poor (especially melee classes).
  17. Random_internet_guy New Member

    Man i am really bummed out. I cant decide on a class. It's really frustrating.

    Bard/Chanter seems really fun on paper, but in reality they seem to just wash out as mediocre dps and a way of pulling. CC aint used much later on in AH and other group stuff im told.

    Pet classes, while i like how necros can do their swarms, dot n forget and the general feel of the class i find pets to be just... meh and a hazzle. And everyone and their mum has one aswell.

    Mage and beast. I was really into beast, till i dappled about in some raids, and then immediately got tired of lacking heals in melee, having to fully buff/weaponize/give armor to the pet again. and even if i died, being hybrid i was done in that encounter both ways as both mana and end were gone and i had to get a new pet mid combat... messy and demotivating. Same goes for rogue and zerker and monk i guess

    Clerics, druids and shamans seems nice. Druid more so and then not anyways. Seem to lack a purpose on druid and with 5 heals (not counting promised) i really dont feel like i have the "umph" to keep a group up heal wise, and my DPS is meh aswell. Shamans and their AE heals seems nice...But, i just cant get into their mindset. And cleric, the shining nerf was just to much. Sure they can heal alot, but that's it. No solo play or anything outside raids. The downside of being a core class i guess.

    Tanks. Well i have not dappled about with those. Over saturated everywhere and the work needed to get to a point where i can do something seems crazy (this is just stuff i am told). Havnt looked into ranger neither as i think its silly that a ranged class is better DPS in melee. If it was the other way around and they were more ranged centric, then i might consider it

    A friend told me that i play everything as a wiz, which may be true. I love big numbers and despite playing a t2 or t8 dps-class i find myself parsing and trying to get better. But wizards... I don't know.

    ANY input is appreciated. Please! Also this post is probably not accurate to any extend regarding my opinions and how i feel the classes play out. I might just suck and/or completely miss the point of a class.
  18. Zahrym Augur

    Any class played exceptionally well is invaluable to any raid. Find something you enjoy to play, it makes it about 100 times easier to excel at it.
    Zakor, Qest T. Silverclaw and Brohg like this.
  19. silku Augur

    If you're a control freak, be a chanter. If you learn everything you can about an enchanter you can make a medicore group into an amazing one. If you don't learn anything about the chanter class, might as well have ANY other class in your spot.
    Qest T. Silverclaw likes this.
  20. Zakor Elder

    Best post of all. You are going to play this, and probably play it a lot, if you raid. Find something you enjoy, something that fits your style, and your personality.