Charm is too strong

Certain buffed pets obviously have the potential to do a lot of damage. I want to see a fair zone wide parse of a standard level appropriate group over an extended period of time e.g. 2 hrs from start to finish (zone in to log out). Basically replicate what happens to 90% of the population on a daily basis - is this too much to ask - and not to cherry pick a 2 min fight and then inflate the numbers every post.

Yes. "we all" as in anybody making the argument it needs to be re-balanced.

Like I already stated in another thread you are already posting in yourself, I don't expect a lot of the sample size of posters you are going to get chiming in here to *EVER* be in favor of removing a major imbalance that gives them a perceived edge or shortcut within their power gaming. Just not in their DNA makeup as an EQ player

For a minute there I was sure you were talking about a druid (or other classes) power leveling, who literally do have the capability of making low level players immortal killing machines......

I've already stated that I personally wouldn't mind the damage dropping. I just don't know by how much. Hence the request for fair parses, which for whats it's worth, I will accept.

Depends on the pet and buffs I guess. I have never seen the stats of a pet, nor have I ever directly compared it to a tank apart from the hp. The hp of some pets in certain zones is definitely higher than some tanks. I have also seen buffed pets out dps certain classes in certain situations. I would love to see that fair parse to see how the damage compares in a fair parse. Oh, I have also seen those pets kill the grp more than once (and I now have a bucket by my desk for a reason)

No

When the pet breaks chanters dont have FD to get out of everything, monks still op dps on raids - dont see your point - bards AOE kite and get more exp than any group - still dont see your point

He won't play past PoP because he's a krono farmer which is why he TLP hops. He wants to get in on the early Krono grab with the rare items. That or he knows enchanters aren't worth logging into by the time OoW if not before.

More trolling. Shocker.

A fully geared tank doesn't randomly switch sides either and start attacking other people in the group with other mobs in camp

If you think the armor and hp are that op now you should have seen them before the first few nerfs.... you didn't need a CH to keep them up and they took even less damage

Leave charm alone. Stop trying to nerf the one fun quality of the most boring raid class in the game. They have already nerfed charm a ton, its fine how it is.

The [weakest] caster utility class [that has no innate offensive spells or powers] [that has had more of its abilities shared with other classes than any other caster] [and which is therefore completely unnecessary to group compositions and in fact performs worse in any of its roles over a prolonged period of time without charm in its current form] [can] also be the best dps [if the right kind of charmable pet is available, which means that the charmable NPC selection must be at the top of that era's NPC strength otherwise the charm pet will be far less strong than any other DPS class] [but only while charm lasts and assuming that the charmed pet does not have an unlucky streak of breaks thus draining all of the Enchanter's mana] [unless the charm pet breaks and wipes out the Enchanter and/or the Enchanter's group, which is an absolute possibility when you are dealing with the strongest era NPCs unless the Enchanter far outgears the content to begin with] and also [can tank anything that any other class in that era is perfectly capable of tanking] [unless there is MOTM which means the charm pet cannot tank at all] and [due to the various risks associated with charm] it shouldn[']t be changed.

The absolute only area where you have any room at all in this entire flawed suggestion would be something that impacts the window of survivability during a charm break, as every player (not just Enchanters) have gained in power due to fundamental differences in the data tables from Classic. Charm is fine and works as intended. It is even weaker than it was in Classic, especially considering the history of Charm with Kael raid content versus how it is now impacted by MOTM. Meanwhile, all other classes are far more powerful on TLP servers than they ever were in their corresponding eras - except, again, Enchanters, since their offensive power is drawn from the charmed NPC and not from the Enchanter's innate offensive spells or power.

But what you cannot do, is link an Enchanter's increased survivability with the power of Charm itself. I don't know how to say it any more plainly. Your problem is clearly with the wider spread of Enchanters that are capable of Charming effectively, but I hate to tell you this but your nostalgia-filled memories of Classic Enchanters is clearly filled with memories of less-than-capable Enchanters or, perhaps, Enchanters with far poorer gear (as these TLP servers are absolutely saturated with best-in-slot geared players) (edit: hell, show me the original live servers that even had this heavy of a raid - or even base - population come PoP to begin with, obviously the pool of talent here will be far different than were the talent pools on back on live in this era). More people can do it well now, but that has nothing to do with the spell and has everything to do with the increases in power that every class has received. And, I might even add, throughout this entire conversation I have come to suspect that you have a very hardcore EverQuest experience, because casually-geared Enchanters that I randomly group with have a far harder time surviving charm breaks and maintaining mana than do my guildmate Enchanters.

You need to take a good hard look at what you feel is the true, bottom-level reason for why Charm seems overpowered before suggesting more fixes to it.

Except for warriors, which we also seem to just casually slip past. It's easy to cherry pick one aspect of something and make it a cause.

Is charm too strong in classic....who cares? If you aren't clearing the spawns in whatever camp you are trying to farm before the reset timers, you're doing it wrong. This is all so much min/max theory crafting crap.

There ARE a handful of areas and specific scenarios where charm is awesome. There are also a ton of those situations in game where other classes, including chanters, are completely (*&)(*&)*(& worthless. That's the nature of EQ, and people's constant cherry picking of situations to justify some sort of victim vendetta is tiring.

It's a bold TEXTED lie.

Where in any exp zone in the game is an enchanter worthless during the life of a TLP (up trough LDoN)?

EDIT:

Also, what do you mean, except warriors? If you were referring to that parse a few pages ago, the warrior was getting credit for damage shields as well.

No, Class is ever truly "worthless"
But on TLPs with AoC people spend at least half their time raiding if not more. For 90% of Raid content any Enchanter past the first one/two is hands down the worst class a raid can add.

Then when you look at it from the perspective of what couldn't you do if Charm was removed from the game vs if CHeal/Defensive was removed. You could still do basically everything besides Zun'Muram in Txveu without any added trouble at all. If you removed CHeal from the game a lot of fights in the game would become borderline impossible.

/yawn

you are boring.

Oh jeez. You don't progress or win a debate by shouting louder or stomping your feet. Looking at this from the devs' perspective, they require: -

1. a problem i.e. does it affect the business model, and if so by how much? if yes, move to 2, if not, stop. More specifically, are a sufficiently high number of people leaving the game because of Charm? imho = NO
2. a target i.e. what is achievable with what budget in what time frame to address (1)? more specifically, what is charm being balanced around and why? how does it affect other content/gameplay? is it fixing an exploit, griefing, tech issue? etc
3. a solution i.e. through extensive in-game testing e.g. parses etc which will require a large amount of resources. Do the devs have the bandwidth? do more devs need to be recruited? Does the time/money invested in testing save lost revenue in the short/med/long term? do any changes 100% address/solve the problem?

IMHO if you can't sensibly justify these three points, you should just forget it. I (have faith and) believe you already know the answer.

I mean is it even a debate that charm is too strong at this point? Of course I'm only talking classic-PoP.
It just seems like common knowledge. This is actually a serious question.

I fully understand if people like it being overpowered. If you say "I like it that way" I can agree with that. But when you make arguments about it not being too strong it just seems like you need to play the upcoming TLPs and report back here then re-decide. I will be posting logs from my group when the TLPS release so we can look at numbers and see how well charm is performing

• Who is making arguments that it isn't strong? and who is taking them seriously?
• It is strong in the right circumstances i.e. only in certain zones, with a specific mob that the ENC and healer must literally baby sit etc.
• The point people make is that many other abilities are also class defining and "strong", arguably IMHO broken. For example, druid PLing completely trivialises the game for the first 30ish levels for any class... I mean you are pretty much immortal until level 15 and can tag multiple reds without any fear. But instead, the vocal minority whine about an ability that is strong in very specific circumstances. It's even more limited for the other classes. Another commonly brought up one is AE farming in the deep, which IMHO is legit but could be classed as an exploit for exp.
• This being said, I'd still like to see fair parses based on 90% meta game play - not a min/max grp.

I just want whatever glow has going on. Through all the enchanters I've mained it's a thorough pain to deal with, especially through the mid-tier leveling and group game. Constant mana balancing, constant charm breaks, inattentive healers and group members. On the whole it's worth it of course for the DPS, but it requires likely the most attentive gameplay versus any other class. Just stop pitching it as some super easymode that you just charm and forget - you are simply not being truthful.

And, for the record, the charm pet is not "the best tank". I'm not sure how you define best but in almost every group I've been in, the pet takes a harder beating than the actual tank and has no ability to snap aggro or creatively protect group members. There is a vast difference between 'can take hits' and 'is the best tank'. This exaggeration is what erodes credibility to any legitimate parts of your argument. These definitive, final, and bold statement that are beyond reality make it not really a discussion and just show that your intent is to get your way no matter what.