Casters -vs- Melee/Hybrid/Tank....

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Saer-tse-tao, Feb 20, 2019.

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  1. Syylke_EMarr Augur

    I believe these are theorized to come from the upcoming GMM zone.
  2. Ninelder Augur

    I asked Ngreth during TBL beta about this. He agreed that the line was much better, but that "the priest CLs, (I did not ask him who these people were) wanted nuke proc weapons instead.

    Maybe Gotwar is right and our priests need to stop healing and start nuking!!!
  3. Ambition Apprentice


    The first two statements I quoted contradict each other. You stated that you don't play a cleric so we'll move on.

    The next statement I quoted somewhat contradict each other as well. Yes the basic group heal druids are provided with does have a lengthy recast and lengthy cast time. No one disagrees. What confuses me is why you said "with no real options...", is that not an option? Every 6 seconds that spell is an option to keep a group alive. Druids also get the Survival line if you want to devote a spell slot to it. Which depending on the raid may be necessary. They get an AA version as well. Yes the recast time is what some might say as lengthy, but it's another option. There are 3 AA's that could be options to heal your group from AE's as well. That doesn't even cover the single target heals/AA's/items you could possibly use.

    At the end of the day, we choose to play our characters how we want. However it's not beneficial to anyone to play the "woe is me" card when you're choosing to use that weapon.

    It's also not beneficial to attack people and guilds and make accusations when they are 1) just trying to help you and 2) you're dependent on a weapon from 5 expansions ago to keep your group alive. Instead of worrying about what other guilds do and do not raid and what phases they may or may not skip, look at your own character. Gear will only take you so far.
  4. Ninelder Augur

    Sorry who did I attack? Is this the priest that raids with people who don't need heals, so their priests nuke instead? That isn't an attack, a conundrum. I have never seen a raid event where heals weren't needed. I am also sure that I am not the only one who has that same question.

    I know what all 3 priests have for AA and spell heals. It has gotten a lot better. Druids had no group heals prior to PoR, and have been far behind the others in the development since.

    Everything a shaman has also has a group heal on it. Half the things the clerics have do as well. I am not saying they shouldn't or even that the druids should. I am saying its their weak spot. The in their armour. Being able to proc extra heals on your group while procing shaman alliance off a tank is better than... not doing it? You must be in the guild where the raiders don't need heals too!

    You are literally attacking me for questioning a priest on a base-strategy that is contrary to every priest in every raiding guild I have every known.
  5. gotwar Augur

    My mind is blown that the only thing you were able to extrapolate from my posts was "Priests shouldn't heal!"

    You keep doing you, boo. I'll keep completing content with the best raid teams in EQ and helping others do the same.

    Without TDS group weapons! :eek:
    Saer-tse-tao and Ssdar like this.
  6. Ninelder Augur

    Well then you let us know how you are doing it without healing, and I will let you know how every real priest in the game knew that you didn't know how to heal by your posted parse numbers above:

  7. Ambition Apprentice

    I implore you to look up the word attack and read through your previous responses to a certain someone.

    Also am not attacking you by any means. I hope it doesn’t come off this way to the general public. I think priests overall benefit greatly from brainstorming ideas. I especially think druids benefit as well. Anything to improve the cliche picture of being snarky know-it-alls who love to shift the blame on others. It is very clear that druids aren’t as cool as clerics when it comes to healing their group. Something clerics don’t offer to their groups? Adps.

    All in all, you keep rocking your TDS 1h and every other priest can rock whatever they want.
  8. Ninelder Augur

    :rolleyes: Dude it was literally 3 posts above...
    Even if your priests do not know how to properly stack their abilities... Even if the healing from the mace is as small as she thinks it is... And that the nuke stick is larger, better etc... It is still completely baffling that they carry them into a raid. Are your clerics nuking enough on raids to close that gap? That is the implication of using a nuke-stick.

    I cannot even begin to imagine a hypothesis that would supply any logical reasoning why a cleric should be carrying a nuke stick into a raid, and making the choice to heal less. Can you?
  9. kizant Augur

    Back on topic for a minute. What I think heroic int should do is increase sympathetic proc rate.
  10. Tucoh Augur

    Have you parsed the impact of those TDS weapons / augs yet? You've already stated it adds 200-300k healing a minute, which I would be very surprised by.
  11. S33k3r Augur

    As a Druid (not in a hardcore raiding guild) I prefer 1HB with Hand of Holy Wrath and Belt with Boon of the Soother. I get some extra group heals when I nuke/heal and I found using the 1H with sympathetic healing procs was stealing too many synergy procs.

    With just the belt I saw an extra 700k healing over 3min 39 secs (192k extra heals a min). Average proc was 26k and best was 38k

    With the belt and Mace of Dark Dreams (best 1H healing weapon i have) I saw an extra 641k over 3min 33 secs (181k extra heals a min). Average proc was 11k and best was 38k, the 1H was using up too many synergy procs which reduced the average.

    Mace of Dark Dreams can proc a 100 point heal (less than Ninelder's weapon but all i have to test with) but with synergy etc I saw it hitting for :-

    [Mon Feb 25 16:13:00 2019] A holy light surrounds you. You healed Seeker for 0 (17325) hit points by HandOfHolyVengeanceVRecourse. (Critical)
    [Mon Feb 25 16:13:04 2019] A holy light surrounds you. You healed Seeker for 0 (350) hit points by HandOfHolyVengeanceVRecourse.
    [Mon Feb 25 16:13:07 2019] A holy light surrounds you. You healed Seeker for 0 (8662) hit points by HandOfHolyVengeanceVRecourse.
    [Mon Feb 25 16:13:26 2019] A holy light surrounds you. You healed Seeker for 0 (18198) hit points by HandOfHolyVengeanceVRecourse. (Lucky Critical)
    [Mon Feb 25 16:13:28 2019] A holy light surrounds you. You healed Seeker for 0 (17325) hit points by HandOfHolyVengeanceVRecourse. (Critical)
    [Mon Feb 25 16:13:42 2019] A holy light surrounds you. You healed Seeker for 0 (17325) hit points by HandOfHolyVengeanceVRecourse. (Critical)
    [Mon Feb 25 16:13:50 2019] A holy light surrounds you. You healed Seeker for 0 (18364) hit points by HandOfHolyVengeanceVRecourse. (Lucky Critical)
  12. S33k3r Augur

    Forgot to add, with just Dream of Mace I saw an extra 262k healing over 4min 26 secs (59k extra heals a min). Average proc was 9.3k and best was 18.6k, pretty good for a 100 heal proc :)
  13. Brohg Augur

    "stealing" synergy procs is ideal. Synergy doesn't add any more or less based on the effect it rides, so being "stolen" just means it got in there early, and spaced more effectively from your real heals.
  14. S33k3r Augur

    Stealing was probably not the ideal word but had no idea what to use instead :)

    What I found was that using the 1H & Belt is that a common occurrence was that synergy would be triggered and the next heal could use all charges if the items proc'd their group heals. In this case the next heals/procs would not get a boost.

    With just a belt I found synergy procs were more spaced out and I saw more healing when testing.
  15. Tucoh Augur

    That's a good point about synergy procs. I'm assuming that it also triggers the shaman's synergy:

    [51001/49721] Luminary's Synergy II
    Max Hits: 3 Matching Spells
    1: Increase Healing Taken by 10800 (Before Crit)

    Which I rely on being generally up and unused on my party while playing my shaman as a solo healer. When my party gets nailed by an AE I quickly cast spiritual squall:

    [58119/14751] Spiritual Squall Rk. III
    AE Waves: 3
    Max Crit Chance: 40%
    1: Increase Current HP by 5133

    Which is modest on its own, but with luminary's synergy is generally enough to recover from the massive AE hits from things like the lava trial or named mob's damage. If I were using a weapon that used a charge of synergy frequently, the charges would be gone when I really needed them.

    I can't speak for raiding, but that aspect alone would make it fairly detrimental to the way I solo-heal with my shaman.
    Ambition and Sancus like this.
  16. Ninelder Augur

    Stealing is the correct word; as in stealing my thunder... That's okay, I still have a few category five hurricanes up my sleeve. I actually didn't include synergy in the parses at all, as if you do things right you rarely need to cast a group heal, and you aren't stacking shaman and druids together. The large number of raid-effecting heal mods are not included either, since while raiding guild strats use some of them, they skip the effects on healing, and how it alters strategy for priests. They generally only focus on Position, DPS and Tanking. You're very good! But this is Quid Pro Quo, I show them mine; and they are suppose to enlighten us on how they win raids with nuking priests..:rolleyes:

    I specifically said that the 200-300k was a lowball number. This parse doesn't have me debuffing, rebuffing, or getting one-rounded by a loose add. This is just me under my own power not using burns, or anyone else's stolen synergy.

    I will have you know how much I hate spreadsheets, and any parse strutting. But I am really curious how you guys can win raids with a raid full of nuking priests. So here it is:

    Green: Heal Cast and amount, left in so you can see I am not using "heal burns."
    Blue: Free Group healing by virtue of casting a heal(as opposed to a nuke.) BOLD BLUE is specifically used to separate Hand of Holy Vengeance procs from others.
    Yellow: Condensed Shaman Alliance Heals that are proc'd by casting direct heals on an alliance-buffed tank. Shaman Alliance is used for its AE range is most useful in most events, and since the shaman themselves cast the least number of direct heals. The heal spam is condensed as it is only important to know that alliance fired the AE heal because another priest cast a heal, not a nuke!
    Purple: Free Tank Healing by virtue of casting a heal upon him.
    Grey: Free Self Healing by virtue of casting a heal upon another.
    Pink: Free Group Healing by virtue of casting any spell.
    Parse Duration is 1min 4seconds per Tucoh's request:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jMz3WvIo7e2_Qjt8YeribzZ8AfWBM1OxMMsPAwqvjBk/edit?usp=sharing

    TL,DR. Totals:

    Direct Heals to Tank: 23 for 2,627,478hps
    Free Heals to tank: 110,000hps
    By virtue of casting a heal(instead of a nuke): 110,000hps
    Free Heals to Self: 110,000hps
    By virtue of casting a heal(instead of a nuke): 110,000hps
    Free Heals to Group : 3,202,907hps
    By virtue of casting a heal(instead of a nuke):
    From Soothing: 2,125,162hps
    From HOHV: 1,066,245hps
    By virtue of casting any spell:
    Brells Aug: 11,500hps

    Number of alliance proc'd heals on the raid because a priest threw a heal(instead of a nuke): 21 21 heals x 11820hp= 248,220hps x 54 raiders= 13,403,880.

    Now as S33k3r so kindly pointed out there are multiple things that will extrapolate the amount healed, auspice, paladin aura, CoL, using heal burns etc. I didn't include any of them.

    You are a priest, you are doing these raids holding a nuke stick. Even if no one ever taught you what our abilities do and how to play; you made the choice to walk into that raid event with a nuke-stick in hand. Knowing full well it meant less healing for your group and raid.

    I have two nuke sticks myself, but they go in the bag for 90pct of the raid events because I want to do a good job. You are admitting to not wanting to do your job. Then you are bragging about your guild being able to beat current hard events anyway; even with you handicapping yourself and them. You are like the men's room at a Lilith Fair. Have you ever heard the expression "teats on a boar?"

    I know your guild has some history, but I am not going to cast aspersions on them. Let's assume they learned from their mistakes and everyone else in your guild is a top notch player. They are carrying your dead weight. So yeah I am going to keep rocking my TDS group gear so I can be the best I can be thanks!
  17. gotwar Augur

    I realize my posts earlier were rude. For that I apologize. Your spreadsheet was very pretty.

    I'd like to go over a few things:

    1) I'm not a priest. When I evaluate Druids, I look at three main criteria:

    A) Can they do more than heal?
    B) Do they know when to heal and when to DPS? Do they keep their group alive?
    C) Are they communicative with the group and on-point with ADPS, debuffing, and utility?

    If the answer to any of these questions is "no" then that's a red flag for us, in both "Top 10" guilds I raid with. You'll notice "Can this person heal?" isn't even in the criteria, because we consider that the bare minimum someone should be able to do before applying.

    2) Druids are a combination of a DPS Caster/Healer. By only focusing on the Cleric side of the class, they're effectively removing 50% of their toolkit. If you're ignoring that side of your class in its entirety, you're either being underutilized by your raid or not giving yourself a chance to grow as a player. It's fine to have a heavy focus on healing, particular in guilds that require you to fulfill a more Cleric-y role, but only doing that means you're not doing everything you can to help the raid succeed.

    I have seen a lot of good Druids who don't fully grasp this concept, or refuse to accept it, and really believe they're doing their jobs to 100% effectiveness, when they could be doing so much more!

    3) I'm going to assume that's not a real raid parse, because if it is, you spent an entire minute overhealing (doing zero actual healing) to your target. Regardless, I'd love to see one without Druid Second Spire running:

    1: Increase Healing by 4000 (After Crit)
    2: Limit Min Level: 75

    Most Druids will be running First Spire during raids because the flat increase in healing amount provided by Second Spire is lackluster at best, whereas the 24% increase to spell crit chance is very desirable.

    Before you say you weren't running Second Spire:

    Base heal amount = 120
    Bonus healing provided by ~1900 "heal amount" stat = 475
    Total flat non-crit heal = 595
    With Second Spire = 4595

    For a crit:
    120*2=240
    475*2=950
    Total flat crit heal (non-lucky)=1190
    With Second Spire = 5190

    List of spells, item effects, and AAs with SPA 392 (flat heal mod "after crit") effects:
    http://www.raidloot.com/Spells.aspx?effect=392&view=Table

    tl;dr = It's limited to class breastplates and priest second spires.

    4) Priests should probably heal. Druids should probably not carry TDS group weapons. You should definitely enjoy the game the way you'd like, though.

    5) Make Heroic Intelligence add Spell Damage + make Spell Damage more impactful.
    Saer-tse-tao and Ambition like this.
  18. Ninelder Augur

    Painfully obvious, If you were a priest, you would be a very bad one.

    When I evaluate Druids, I look at three main criteria:
    A) Can they do more than heal?
    B) Do they know when to heal and when to DPS? Do they keep their group alive?
    C) Are they communicative with the group and on-point with ADPS, debuffing, and utility?

    If the answer to any of these questions is "no" then that's a red flag for us, in both "Top 10" guilds I raid with. You'll notice "Can this person heal?" isn't even in the criteria, because we consider that the bare minimum someone should be able to do before applying.[/quote]

    Your lack of priest knowledge is fairly apparent, you should probably not be the one evaluating them. Most certainly not giving them advice.

    I am a 20 year vet to the class. Your guild has tried to recruit me a hundred times. They also had the most disturbingly ironic recruiter I have ever seen.

    As for effectiveness: you literally could not see the forest for the trees in that mace. Your 170hp heal 2 or 3 times a minute, turns into over a million in my hands. Your knowledge of what any healer can do is pretty bad, as you have proven.

    here:
    Here:
    Here:
    And Here
    This is specifically only my abilities that are not just making the 2-300k mark you requested but over 1million, in one minute. Depending on raid and class make up you are going to have half a dozen of these mods running at any given time.Each one having an exponential effect on the others. I just parsed the one. because I that's all that was required to hit your mark. S33ker pointed out two more, but I guess you didn't understand them either.

    All legitimate raiding guilds need healing, and i would wager that in 90percent of them a druids primary and often exclusive role on raids is as a healer. Apparently your raids don't require skilled healing, which you were supposed to Quid Pro Quo as to how that is; instead you are back-peddling. I put my money where my mouth is; now you need to do the same.



    If only there were more than one heal mod in the SPA... OMG there is! You really should do some research before you start giving people advice, and/or jumping to conclusions about things you obviously don't understand. You haven't been right once in this thread.



    There you go with the bad advice again. What I would really enjoy is the promised Quid Pro Quo, what the advantage is behind making your priests carrying nuke sticks. Even if they don't nuke on raids, they are making a conscientious decision to not heal nearly as well as they should be, or you are forcing them to be bad. Which leads us back to the Quid Pro Quo.

    We are just dying to know, what the advantage is for priests to only have and carry nuke sticks on raids. That is, unless you are only using them for DPS; because your raids don't take damage In which case, I believe every other raiding guild and the devs and GMs would like to know how you are pulling that off.
  19. Tucoh Augur

    Thank you, Ninelder, for providing a digested parse showing the impact of hand of holy vengeance. I know this stuff takes time, time that you probably would rather spend helping guild mates, building your evolving items, but I appreciate it because it helps me improve myself, and maybe shows insights that otherwise would be hidden!

    I don't generally use second spire on my priests, so I took the liberty of pulling that 4k healing away from the values in a new spreadsheet here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/192S-ALWFgVvyN6bxWvjn-R_KpJJSSLAoUtjaG2AFV-g/edit?usp=sharing

    Refer to columns G and H where I tabulated up the added healing minus 4k per HoHV heal.

    From this tabulation, you achieved 194674 healing over this period. This is pretty close to the 200k figure you cited, which is higher than I expected!

    I don't have a comment on the virtue of priests nuking while the raid is being damaged, but you've successfully demonstrated the added value of HoHV, thank you.
  20. Patagonia New Member

    I feel like this is a great time to repost my favorite meme from the meme thread. (credit to Sirene_Fippy)

    [IMG]
    Ninelder likes this.
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