Casters -vs- Melee/Hybrid/Tank....

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Saer-tse-tao, Feb 20, 2019.

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  1. Ninelder Augur

    Not at all... for any priest honestly... Shaman have endless mana and clerics are close now with their stuff, especially if they buff right. Druids are the only class without a real self-mana pump, but that only matters if they die, at which point they won't be useful til long after the fight is over.

    The Siren's Mace and Ancient Opal Spellcharm are actually probably not the best items for every priest, just every raiding cleric and druid. Shaman have that super powerful recourse heal that they can keep going non-stop, and they can stack it with their HoTs in addition to all the AE heals from their alliance. While the Mace and Spellcharm would proc from all those spells as well its may actually be complete overkill. It would not proc from their sabretooth, but it would proc from their roar!!! It wouldn't proc when they were casting malo or slow or their dots, I am not sure if would proc from Incapacity. I have never tested that or if their Alliance spell being cast would proc them; but quite possible as it is also an AE heal when cast. Cannibalization used to proc all heal procs, but they finally "fixed" that after five or six years. I do know that casting any HP buff or regen will proc them for any class. So... and a raid shaman would probably be the best to answer as to what their individual needs are for the players in their raid groups.

    But aside from DI and maybe a reverse DS everything a cleric does is a heal. So you would only not need extra free group heals if you never lose anyone in your groups. If you have never lost any raid attempt then i tip my hat, and you can ignore everything I have said.

    Half of what a druid does mid-raid is not healing. Unfortunately they are generally their groups only healer. Even more unfortunate they have the weakest, worst casting time, longest recast time for group heals of any priest class, and i believe even paladins group stuff is better than a druids group heals as well. With no real options, a druid needs the most help in keeping their group alive through AEs. This is why they get the brell's priest aug, the soother belt, and if they are smart this mace and aug. If you have not actually done the legwork to acquire these items, you are missing a huge chunk of all-stackable-offset-between healing power. If you actually acquire the items and do the testing, you will do what I did, take your raid crap throw it in the bank to rot and equip these things. 5k HEM is nothing to an extra 200-300k free group heals to your group per minute.

    Right now there are some grinder guild druids reading this. Who would like to step in and point at the detrimental heal procs from RoS. Your raids skip part of the raid events. There are whole phases you don't ever get to see. Along with those phases are tons of AE damage that you never have to deal with. The rest of us do not have the luxury of skimming the Cliffnotes for an easy A. We have to struggle through every craptastic line of A Tale of Two Cities, avoiding every temptation to commit suicide by paper-cutting our wrists with the pages of that horrible book. Imagining a way to travel back in time; crucify Dickens; and do something infinitely worse to the moron that offered to pay him by the word...

    Sorry for the ramble...
  2. Ninelder Augur

    I begged my guild to try that raid, but they wouldn't apparently the melee gear wasn't good enough. We did beat it one time on Open Raids after. But no drop. You are doing something wrong if you are having mana issues(sans mana drain, in which case that tiny mana return is useless.) You need to test all the items i mentioned above. You will change your mind.
  3. Critts Augur

    I would gladly take that primary.
  4. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    It's not just Heroics.

    1) Worn focus effects don't critical for DD casters, so that 70-120% bonus ends up being more like 9-10% with you aren't burning, and closer to 4-5% when we are. And that isn't a joke or an exaggeration.

    Wizards' biggest nuke is Ethereal Skyblaze which has a base damage of ~40,000 damage. This means the average focus is 38,000. On a crit with no special mods, that spell crits for ~400,000. On a full burn it will crit for ~800,000 or more.

    That 38,000 focus effect adds a very small amount because it doesn't crit.

    2) Many of our AAs use the same non-critting focus effect. Damage Adept has a value of 8%. That means it adds 3,200 damage to that spell. That's less than 1% on a normal crit and less then .5% on a burn.

    3) Other AAs use other Non-critting focus effects. Sorcerer's Vengeance adds a flat damage that doesn't crit. Currently it is 4,000. This actually makes it BETTER than the above Damage Adept, but still < 1% on a normal crit and < .5% on a burn.

    4) Several of our beneficial AAs do not stack with others such as Improved Familar.

    Improved Familiar both uses the non-critting focus mentioned above (45-60%) but because of this it does NOT stack with Bards' Aria (45%).

    Even if they did stack, this would STILL be less than the worn focus effect mentioned above which is itself a very minor addition. Changing either the Bard (preferable) or the Familiar, or even BOTH to use a different SPA would improve them greatly.

    5) Recast on AAs. Wizards have some of (if not the longest) refresh timers on our abilities.

    Arcane Fury: 20 minutes.
    Fury of the Gods: 20 minutes.
    Manaburn (which doesn't crit unlike Harm Touch which DOES crit): 36 minutes. What's the recast like on Harm Touch?

    6) Spells/AAs that never (or very very rarely) get upgraded like Twincast and Second spire.

    We are still using the level 85 spell Twincast from 2008. It never gets upgraded. There are a dozen ways it could be improved. Increase the duration. Decrease the recast. Make it use counters like Improved Twincast and then increase the counters on new ranks. Etc. Etc.

    Second Spire was upgraded once from 150 to 160% crit mod. Druids/Enchanters have better mods now and they are GROUP vs our self-only ones.

    7) Spells/AAs that DO get upgrades, but the upgrades are so minor the spell atrophies and dies like rune, harvest, and many others.

    Wizards' rune absorbs 50k damage. Mobs these days quad for 60k+. That 50k rune doesn't even absorb one hit of 1 round.

    Shield of Order absorbs up to 222k spell damage, but spells these days spells are 150k+ meaning it needs to be recast after every AE or every melee round. OR all the spells are 2 tick DoTs meaning they bypass Shield of Order COMPLETELY because SoO doesn't mitigate DoTs.

    Harvest when it came out in TSS restored 25-35% of a Wizards' mana pool. These days it restores like 8%. Many other classes have been given similar abilities that restore more than ours!

    8) Spells/AAs that are broken that are never fixed like Dichotomic and Weave.

    Weave still eats extra counters on spells/AAs.

    Dichotomic still doesn't twincast or get spell haste from our AA like it should.

    Arcane Fusion still has the stupid 15% cap on it because the old AA dev didn't know what he was doing.

    I could go on, but I'm triggering myself so I'm going to stop.
  5. gotwar Gotcharms

    There is no amount of magic, heal mods, or spreadsheet trickery that would turn a 170-point base group heal proc into 200-300k group heals per minute.
  6. Sancus Augur

    This was changed for the RoS BP's to use SPA 302. It stacks with Eyes of Life and Decay, which uses 413.
    Saer-tse-tao and Beimeith like this.
  7. Ninelder Augur

    You got necros and shaman and clerics, of all the casters-priests those are the only ones with an item that is still awesome years later. You guys have awesome huge impact epics.

    Correct me if i am wrong, but none of the rest of us do. Much of the melee tank stuff got mudflated out, but is technically still useful. Not that they can complain at all, you still see them carrying the kunark slow hammers, or snare weapons etc etc etc. Every main melee I know carries the while every caster and priest destroyed or set their in bank to collect dust since what 2006?

    Gotta love caster focus degradation, cause what we all want in our fantasy game is less magic, or in this case less people playing anything magic. I think the excuse he used was "more flavour." Blizzard thanks you for the thousands and thousands of extra subscribers!
    Coagagin likes this.
  8. Ninelder Augur

    That is all of them combined, and it was a lowball number. But hey, you go gear yourself with whatever you want. I am obviously delusional, and only carry around this stuff cause i like its graphics... LOL.
  9. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    Well, scratch 1 of them off the list then I suppose.
    Sancus likes this.
  10. Tatanka Augur

    What belt are you referring to?
  11. gotwar Gotcharms

    Sure, but you're not replacing 5k HME for any item you mentioned except the weapon.

    I actually went through my logs, accounting for 2 months of raiding in three different guilds, and the average hit for this proc is around 1k, accounting for crits/non-crits.

    Line 779761: [Thu Feb 07 18:49:05 2019] Drmeowz is surrounded by a holy light. Drmeowz healed himself for 1240 hit points by HandOfHolyVengeanceIXRecourse. (Lucky Critical)

    There are a few one-off instances where a single group member will get a much larger heal (in the 20-40k range), but no amount of math on just that heal would account for a 25000% increase to the base heal. In other words, it's getting focused by something with a +flat increase heal amount foci.

    The most likely culprit there is Synergy. There's a few other effects like it as well. Which also means you could just as easily consume that effect with any other number of things that don't drop you nearly 10,000 HME to use.

    In other words, you're dumping survivability and sustainability for... a 1k heal per group member, around 2-3 times a minute.

    On the other hand, I see ArmsOfHolyWrathRecourse proc averaging 11 times that.

    Line 5045067: [Sun Feb 17 18:43:52 2019] A holy light surrounds you. Kuvani healed you for 14801 hit points by ArmsOfHolyWrathVRecourse. (Critical)

    So I'm not going to say you're delusional, but I would definitely not recommend anyone go swapping out their TBL raid weapons for a group weapon created 5 years ago. I love the creative out-of-the-box thinking, but going too far outside the box may be holding back your performance.
    Saer-tse-tao likes this.
  12. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    So what you're saying is I need to stop slacking on that Heal Breakdown tab.
    gotwar likes this.
  13. Ninelder Augur

  14. Schadenfreude Augur

    Saer-tse-tao likes this.
  15. Ninelder Augur

    It's not hard to confuse me, but how the heck are you responding to me from an entirely different thread? I mean is there a way that you can log in and just hit a "Stalk Ninelder" button? It's the only way I can fathom that you would post something from one thread i posted in to another. That are on entirely different subjects.
  16. Seldom Augur

    You posted that in this thread..... Rest assured, there is no stalk Ninelder conspiracy :p
    Schadenfreude likes this.
  17. Tatanka Augur

  18. Ninelder Augur

    I started to parse this to explain how this works but I don't want it nerfed. Also I am not sure what class Drmeowz is so it may vary, although I have at least one of each priest class, so... From my point of view its beneficial to all of them.

    My main is a druid, so I am not sure what you mean by survivability, either preincarnation works or it doesn't. I been "lucky" with the shield blocks before, but nothing else will let a druid survive getting beat on.

    I just want to point out that your ArmsofHolyWrathVRecourse, only procs from damage spells, which also won't proc Holy Soothing. It will not proc a heal on your group from most of the things that most raiding priests have to do. You are in a grinder guild. You are quite specifically one of the people I was referring to when I posted this:

    "Right now there are some grinder guild druids reading this. Who would like to step in and point at the detrimental heal procs from RoS. Your raids skip part of the raid events. There are whole phases you don't ever get to see. Along with those phases are tons of AE damage that you never have to deal with. The rest of us do not have the luxury of skimming the Cliffnotes for an easy A. We have to struggle through every craptastic line of A Tale of Two Cities, avoiding every temptation to commit suicide by paper-cutting our wrists with the pages of that horrible book. Imagining a way to travel back in time; crucify Dickens; and do something infinitely worse to the moron that offered to pay him by the word..."

    I realize I went off the rails a bit there. Your raid event may come from the same raid giver, with the same keywords to request and enter. All similarities end there. You skip phases, most of us do not. You are playing a different game than we are.
  19. gotwar Gotcharms

    I'm fairly confident I already nailed down how it works in my post and that it's unlikely to be nerfed.

    No, I'm not. We literally play the same game.

    To be clear, I raid with the #1, #7, and #00 guilds on EGL. The "00" guild didn't even rank on EGL last expansion. They're currently #20. So dismissing my advice due to some perceived difference in the mechanics we see on events is an incorrect line of thinking.

    I guess it's all a moot point, aside from dissuading future readers from rushing out to TDS to grind currency for a group weapon. It's unlikely that you upgrading your weapon is going to suddenly make your guild magically progress through events with ease. But I'm hoping that by trying to shift the way you view the game, your raid force, and the events you tackle, you can gain some insight into what might be holding y'all back.

    Changing your mentality from "We can't do it this way, because we're not good enough."


    "We can do it this way, because we're good enough."

    Can make all the difference!

    Saer-tse-tao, Tolzol and Sancus like this.
  20. Wulfhere Augur

    Right, Darkened Trakanon's Malleus is the direct 1-hand upgrade, for the heal+group heal mechanics, that Ninelder is contemplating. I don't see any newer weapons with e.g. Sympathetic Hand of Remedy focus yet.

    I also see effects that are combinations of belt and weapon effects with one that matches but has no items associated with it yet either: Treaded Boon of Potential
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