Can't decide bard or ranger

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Malkavius, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. Malkavius Augur

    I'm having a hard time trying to figure which one of these will be my main on agnnar. I have never more than dabbled in either class. But I know their general capabilities. I'm just not sure how either of them will fare over the next few expansions with the buffs and needs to the general game play and these classes. Some advice would be nice.
  2. Machentoo Augur


    If you know their general capabilities, you know all you need to know to decide for yourself. Both are highly mobile but beyond that there are very few similarities. If you can't decide whether you'd play ranged/melee dps or puller/adps there's not much we can do to help you.
  3. Mrjon3s Augur

    If your playing agnarr just make both. You still have a month of classic then 6 months of kunark/velious to hit 60 and be ready for luclin.
  4. Communist Puppy Augur

    Ranger. Bards are trash classic-luclin unless you want to just afk melody, and by the time pop hits, youre locked for ever and there isnt that much to enjoy. Rangers are broken at least for luclin+pop so you get a little more time when you are strong.
  5. Ultrazen Augur

    Ah the poor bard, it's such a sad story. TLDR: Bards are crappy chanters that run fast. From 5-45, bard is probably the most fun class in the game to level if you like pulling. Being able to lull pull and mez and run really fast is really quite a lot of fun. You make a fantastic puller, and the gameplay is fast and fairly exciting, as you're always on the move. Then you hit level 45, and you absolutely suck. The fact that bard mez doesn't work on mobs over level 45 is just flat out stupid. Enchanters are already better in every possible way than a bard other than run speed, but the cliff you fall off at level 45 is just horrible. You are completely worthless in the end game classic dungeon that everyone wants to run, the hole. Here are the problems with bards, in no particular order:

    1. Can't mez mobs over level 45
    2. Songs don't effect pets or charms, and they never will on this server (GoD AA)
    3. Charm uses mana, and bard mana regen is another one of those 'what the hell are they thinking' things. Once you are out of mana, you won't have it back for at least an hour.
    4. You use in raids is to melody resist and mana regen.
    5. Your melee is worthless, you'll end up about 4% on a parse if you're lucky.
    6. A lot of songs don't stack with spells, that should. This is especially true in classic.

    This trend more or less continues for various expansions. Bards are always a day late and a dollar short on Agnarr. They seriously need to take a look at this class, and where and when the skills breakdown and make some changes. For what it's worth, I main a bard in a raiding guild lol. Honestly, if it wasn't for the resist song and stacking mana regen, it would literally be a useless class at 50 in classic.

    Ranger. Well....rangers are "ok" in classic, absolutely suck in Kunark, and then get better from there on out, and end up top of the heap at server lock. As far as an investment in the future of what to play, it's ranger by a mile. You'll struggle through a few expansions, but there is a big payoff in the end.
  6. Karpoio New Member

    ^^ thanks for ruining my day
  7. Rhodz Augur

    Why do you think the old timers that loved the class are so ticked off about it?
    Saddest story in all of EQ.
  8. dreamer05 Lorekeeper

    When does bard get their higher mezz? DBG has got to fix this one. We need more than one CC class in this game.
  9. Rhodz Augur


    Well at least there are plenty of Enc around... for now.
    Later not so much.
    I hate that TLP's are constrained by the attitudes of two decades past, many of which we know was a mistake as much was corrected in later xpaks.
    Dont help us a lot though, ah well there is a small up side... I am sure...somewhere.
  10. Darwin New Member

    Bards will get plenty powerful on this server. As a support class or puller they're always welcome in groups. Mana regen gear and AAs will help with charming, and I forget the mez max lvls but in most exp camp suitably lvled bards were fine for mezing in velious/luclin/pop on Phini (maybe kunark, i dont remember). With epic or other singing mods (there's a drop from ssra and maybe a song? later), bard haste/slow are great for casual groups. Mana/hp regen song is always great. Overhaste is fantastic.

    It may not be 100% full capabilities that the senior bards are used to, but they won't be a weak class.
  11. Baldur Augur

    Both of those classes don't get good until Luclin. Bards get overhaste and some good AAs in Luclin. Rangers get ranged AAs in Luclin and are top DPS on most raids because of them and bane bows.

    I play both as a box on Phinny and I feel like the bard got a lot better in PoP and the ranger got a little better in PoP. The bard gets overhaste+spell damage song in PoP and adds DoT damage to it in LDoN and gets all in one resist song. The ranger gets some really nice attack buffs and a nice AC buff in PoP.

    Before Luclin both those classes are pretty mediocre. If you have an enchanter in the group a bard is about worthless before Luclin unless you're pulling. A ranger is mediocre DPS before Luclin, but can tank in a pinch.
  12. Darwin New Member

    Rangers make pretty great group tanks from now through server end. Great snap aggro from flame lick and taunt puts them up there with sk/pal in terms of quick threat (>warrior), and the extra dps from ranger > the extra AC on the plate tanks for most group content (rangers are tanky enough). Throw in track on top of that, particularly in competitive places where named mobs might spawn close enough to pull but not immediately within LoS (velks comes to mind). The mainhand epic fits this role nicely, though honestly it's not too hard to find better in Velious.

    Topping raid parses in luclin is nice, but wizards can put out more dps on some bosses. More importantly, though, wizards speed up raid clears substantially. Even when topping parses, I felt a lot less useful than the wizards. Without me, the boss might take a minute longer, but without one of the wizards, getting to the boss might take ten minutes longer.
  13. Wowjustwow Elder

    Wow, a lot of trash talk about the bard on here which is surprising to me.

    The chose between Ranger and Bard very much depends on your intents and personality.

    BARD:
    If your intent on this server is to get to raiding status and be a highly desired class throughout the progression of the server, I would say go bard.
    The resist songs alone in a raiding situation will instantly get you into any guild you want.

    A good bard is better than a melody bot hands down. I am one that likes to optimize myself in every situation so if someone in the raid can be doing 4% of the damage to a mob and they are sitting there afk, they are a waste of space IMO.

    Now days, in a raiding guild, the bard epic is easy to get. (the raiding guild should have scales already and the trak guts drop off the instance and open trak now (they used to only drop off of the undead bard spawned trak on previous TLPs!)

    Disadvantages:
    As folks have stated, the grouping situation is great up to level 45 but beyond that it gets tough. You end up being a puller from 45+ and from 55+ in kunark you really feel the pain of not being able to mez or charm anything you are fighting in a EXP group. I really wish they would add the Luclin bard mez into Kunark because that would make a bard able to replace an Enchanter for CC. The enchanter would still be king with their charm but the bard at least would give the group options.

    RANGER:
    Probably about equal in having troubles finding groups. People still don't understand that rangers are great tanks in classic for leveling and very good tanks in kunark leveling also. Because of this lack of knowledge, you'll have troubles getting groups. It's hard to get a group as DPS because your DPS is one of the lowest at the moment but come Luclin/POP, you will have your day!
    The epic is easy to get here also.

    If you don't want to raid and don't mind waiting until Luclin to have your day in the light, go Ranger.



    MY ADVISE:
    Honestly if I had to make this decision, I would go Bard from Classic thru Vellious. Keep the ranger leveled up and keep him at least somewhat geared (should be easy on this server but you'll have to know what Raid items you need to pick up pre luclin like the Dagaan(sp?) bow and a primal weapon). Once Luclin rolls out, switch to Ranger (unless you are really in love with your bard at that point).
  14. dreamer05 Lorekeeper

    Don't bards get a Mezz in Kunark at lvl 53? Songs of Twilight?
  15. Machentoo Augur


    This is maybe true in classic/kunark/velious, but the reality is that bards are a bit meh relatively speaking in pop/ldon where the server will be locking. The resists aren't critical, and bards don't yet have the adps to make up for taking a slot from a pure dps. If you bring 1-2 bards on a potime raid for ae songs, and replace the rest with equally geared dps, you would lack nothing critical and maybe notice a slight boost to overall raid dps. Especially on instanced progression servers where most everyone will have very decent resists and gear. Tank groups can get by just fine without the marginal ac benefits or resists at this stage of the game.

    This all changes back again come OoW and all the synergies that begin to develop on burns. Bards once again become very important to have in your dps groups at that point.

    That said, most guilds won't pay attention to the slight dip in bard usefulness, few guilds ever have as many bards as they want, and you likely will have no problem getting guild invites as a bard even in pop/ldon.
    Wowjustwow likes this.
  16. Ultrazen Augur

    There are a lot of problems with trying to melee as a bard in a raid, unless you are in the "tank" group. Any bard that is in melee, and is assigned to casters, will almost certainly be out of range of those casters for mana song, which has an incredibly small radius. Your pitiful DPS contribution, is so far outweighed by keeping mana song on casters that can actually do damage or heal, it's not even funny. This is another reason why bards get relegated to being box characters.

    There are a lot of mechanics, and bad design decisions, that really hamper bards. I wish it weren't so, as I love the class, but in it's current state, it's very easily replaced. They make fine resist/mana bots, but beyond that, their limitations are pretty infuriating. There are spots along the level curve where they rise to the level of crappy chanter, but beyond that, they have very little actual usefulness. EVERY other class in the game that has buffs, can cast them on pets. Bards already suffer from the limitation of having to be in range of what they are tying to buff, the fact that they also can't even land their buffs on pets and charms is just.....horribly stupid. Why on earth would you put a bard in your group, when you can have a chanter that can buff your pets, and have those buffs make a significant difference. The laughable 15% overhaste that bards bring in later expansions, is beat by a huge margin, just by the fact that chanters can buff pets, that's not even including the DPS they can bring with charm that they can sustain indefinitely.

    I love bards, but they are a very weak class, especially on Agnarr. Want a bard? Start a second account and box it with your ranger.
  17. Wowjustwow Elder

    Man you are obsessed a bit too much with the bard manasong. It's also laughable that you think an enchanter buffing pets is such an amazing thing. Maybe shaman pets which the SHM can buff themselves? Main pet classes get spell lines like burnout and augment death. I totally agree that the bard gets the short end of the stick when comparing it to an enchanter but the bard is also an excellent puller when played right. In the absence of an enchanter (which is going to happen a good amount unfortunately with people sitting with 2 or 3 enchanters in some groups), a good lull puller is much faster and more efficient than a FD puller.

    Lets go thru some manasong examples:
    What does manasong add? 8 mana per tick in classic? A tick is 6 seconds. So that's 80 mana per min and that is only when the caster is sitting (which should be hardly at all in classic boss fights besides on a healer maybe).

    It is much more valuable in classic for a bard to be up in the fight in a full nukker group to give them the proper resists especially for a dragon fight. The casters might run out of mana by the end of the fight if the fight lasts long but in this case the caster really isn't sitting much until last 2-3 min of the fight and if they are sitting a lot, they probably wouldn't be burning thru their full manapool anyways. If the bard realizes all of his casters are OOM he should back up and manasong them. So no, box bard is not very optimal for caster groups.

    If it is a full healer group, the group doesn't actually need resist songs so yes, a bard box is equal to a regular bard here because 80 mana per min suddenly becomes 400 mana per min when multiplied by 5 healers.

    In a meele group, you are best to keep those resists up preventing fears and extra unneeded damage because we know those meele don't want to dodge out. This will save your healers mana. Box bard sitting out of the fight is absolutely not ideal in classic in this situation.

    Different fights in Classic -----
    Dragons --- Box bard situational good but not optimal in all groups.
    Inny/CT --- Don't need resist songs so usefulness not great but casters should know to sit by meele range to get that manasong so the added bard meele damage is good.
    Draco --- Box bard bad unless you are really paying attention to that box
    Sky --- Box board not terrible long as they are up meeleing the mob. If they are sitting doing nothing, they are fairly useless on most sky fights besides bees. Casters have to know when their bard is up in meele range, they are responsible to go sit by that bard if they want manasong.

    Come Kunark, the bard manasong gets super-powered but it also gets a range boost. Most of the fights in kunark are relatively easy to evaluate. In VP, pretty much all dragons are pulled to a corner and in this case, the bard doesn't have much movement at all and is free to duck in and out for slight added raid DPS. Everyone gets the songs as long as they are not in BFE.
    Open world dragons, if the box bard gets feared it essentially has to become a played bard.

    Come Vellious, A majority of the fights you can't even dodge the AEs. Casters should know if they have a bard that they need to sit near meele range so they get songs. It's their responsibility to get up close and personal. Eventually the bards get AE manasong.

    TL:DR
    Boxed bards in Classic/Kunark/Vellious are ok but not as good as a bard that is aware of his situation plus adds some damage while he is there. People with the mentality like the above poster are the same people that act like a raiding bard doesn't deserve any loot to better their character.
  18. Machentoo Augur


    Uh, mana song does not only add mana when the caster is sitting. You get the same amount from mana song whether sitting, standing or casting.
  19. Wowjustwow Elder

    But besides a cleric group, the casters should be dodging in and out or they are staying in the fight.
    Where would the manasong have the most uptime on the caster?
    If a bard is an afk box behind the corner, the manasong doesn't hit when the caster goes in for nukes and if you are an active bard you can do what your casters do.

    Active bard gets a better uptime on manasong hands down as long as they are paying attention. In a healer group it means you are situationally aware and stay with your healers.

    In all honesty, a lot of bards don't play their class properly but a properly played bard should be better than a boxed one in a majority of situations is my argument. I do agree that most of the time the difference between a boxed bard and a main bard is much less of a difference between other classes though but to downright say a boxed bard is better than a main bard is absurd.
  20. Machentoo Augur


    I won't argue that an alt bard is better than an active bard, that's obviously not true. But you just need to put the bard alt on autofollow on one of the casters to avoid the problem you are describing. If it's a boxed bard, it's probably boxed by someone in the group (or should be) so no reason that person can't do their job on their main and also keep the bard appropriately positioned as well. Same thing applies if the bard is supposed to be with the healers, just autofollow one of the healers and you should have 100% uptime on manasong.