Can someone explain why a 64-bit system is a big deal?

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by WokeCat, Nov 6, 2021.

  1. WokeCat Augur

    I don't actually understand how this will change anything?

    Also I put this in TLP because I don't know which forum it should have been on, and I play on TLP so it seemed the most logical :p
  2. Mossaa Augur

    More memory can be used. Welcome to the moderne world. Better grapics. Faster loading of data. Issues that had a max due to 32 bit limit will not have it. Easier and better support from DB. ++++++++ so much more
  3. Fell Augur

    32-bit software is limited to 4GB of memory. 64 bit is limited to .... far more than you'll ever use (Win 10 is capped at 2 TB, or 2,000 GB ).

    The downside is that 64 bit code actually consumes more memory. Not a problem if you have plenty ... but older systems with 4GB or less of RAM are going to see some performance degradation.
    Shindius likes this.
  4. WokeCat Augur

    How will this make the graphics better though..? Like won't they pretty much look the same as before? I feel like EverQuest already loads super fast on my computer compared to other games I play?
    Yinla and MasterMagnus like this.
  5. Mossaa Augur

    Good for you then. As DB did say in their post 64-Bit Servers and Clients Arriving Soon! | EverQuest - Additionally, this change allows for increased client and server performance by allowing us to load more into memory instead of relying on slow reads from a hard drive. Plus, this puts us on a path to have more and higher resolution art in the game.
  6. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    "This puts us on a path to more and higher resolution art in the game"

    Breaking that down we have:
    "puts us on a path" = Now we can make higher res textures, but those don't currently exist. The destination of the path will take a while given the mind blowing amount of textures in the game and their planned but not yet hired art crew that would do this.

    "more" = Larger available memory

    "more and higher resolution art" = Textures for sure and maybe models and animations, wouldn't hold my breath on that one for characters or existing mobs, maybe new things.
  7. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    Im hoping that rather than just increasing the texture resolution, they look into PBR-textures and displacement maps. Maybe if they update the render we can see something like that.
    I doubt it is coming soon though. :)
    Shindius and MasterMagnus like this.
  8. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    Here we cross over into the realm of graphics code as opposed to just updating assets, or new things using higher resolution but still being 'assembled' the same way.

    Their assets use Diffuse, Normal, Specular (EQ2 has Fresnel as well) Maps/textures. PBR use different maps and different Shaders (code). I really don't see the benefit to them going that way, requiring so much reworking, as opposed to porting to a development tool that does all the shading for you instead of having to code it (and maintain) yourself.
    Keella likes this.
  9. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    That depends on what kind of development tools they actually have at their disposal. Im betting that if they asked nicely, that they could borrow some stuff from the planetside2 team.

    I don't know how "modular" the everquest-architecture is, but If they "untangled the spagetti-code", maybe they could substitute some of the old subsystems from EQ with modern stuff from their other inhouse projects. For example the 3d-render from planetside2 or something like that. That would be a worthy long-term project imho. :) It would also make EQ easier to maintain in the long run.

    I think daybreak should work towards an "unified mmo game-engine" that was shared among all their games, but make it modular enough to allow each game to be different. I am sure EG7 would invest in something like that...

    For older zones, just raising the texture-resolution would probably be a low-hanging fruit, they have done it before with the original "Shadows of Luclin" expansion iirc.
    Keella and MasterMagnus like this.
  10. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    I have assets in all the games that offered Player Studio. Planetside 2 is even more of a custom mess with the maps and the way they use them. At the end of the day it is not PBR, it's pretty close to EQ but with gloss maps to add metalness look.

    Actually I started thinking about it though.

    They use Maya, I'm most familiar with Blender. Blender offers python scripting, and node based rendering. You could maybe write a procedure to batch all the textures to the PBR format.

    And AI assisted upscaling is pretty amazing these days.

    They'd have to do the code still, and I don't think they have much they can borrow from. Though I don't know the details of DCUO.

    Landmark used Forgelight, and used the same lighting and texture maps PS2 does. I still have some of the extracted assets from Landmark.
    Shindius and Jumbur like this.
  11. Fell Augur

    All of which could be done -- if they wished to -- without a change to 64-bit. The client only uses 700MB now, after all.

    It's certain that the driving impetus here is the desire to convert the server code to 64-bit, not the client. The additional memory would allow them to consolidate hardware, and save a bundle. The client-side motivation is likely more about access to modern compilers/tools, and maintaining a degree of alignment with server-side development. We aren't going to see updated graphics anytime soon that's for sure ... and the people who believe the change will lead to faster initial load times are going to be disappointed as well. Faster zoning? Sure. But that's about all, at least initially.
    MasterMagnus likes this.
  12. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    If you just run around in guildhall, lobby and PoK with everything enabled, the memory footprint peaks at around 1.2GB.

    It might be even larger during raids in more detailed zones.
    Shindius likes this.
  13. Fell Augur

    Still a long way from 4GB.

    My guess is they never even enabled the client to be large address aware, so it's got a 2GB limit instead.
    Jumbur likes this.
  14. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    That is certainly a possibility. I do expect that future assets will push the client well above the old 2GB limit. :cool:

    If that will affect TLP's is another optional "hi-res texture-pack" that retroactively covers all the zones is not outlandish. They have done it before, and AI-assisted upscaling is a thing.

    The question is, if it will look good? Hi-res textures in low-detail scenes might not be as pretty as we think it is...They will probably only do it, if it is easy, cheap and a visual improvement.
    Shindius likes this.
  15. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    Sometimes I am so rude! I had to correct myself on this one.

    As I understand it, the great T-Ray was instrumental in PS2 graphics being set up the way they are, and they look fantastic! The whole shader does a great job at the kind of content that game has, in the era before PBR.

    I meant to say, the maps and multiple uv mappings are a custom system, that doesn't transfer well (kind of like EQ) to more modern and now settled upon standards.
    Keella and Jumbur like this.
  16. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    Question: Is the planetside2 engine their newest engine or do their more recent projects use a different engine?
    Do they have other engines that would be a better future-proof match?

    I know eqnext had a voxelbased render, that afaik, has not been used in anything that is currently live.
    Converting existing polygon-based assets to voxels is probably "computable", but might not give optimal or pleasing results...
  17. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    Ha, now we bump up against that JB interview where he didn't know what he was talking about.

    Landmark used Forgelight fused with VoxelFarm's tech. This was a glorious Frankenstein built mainly by the great Sklug. (I wish people would stop talking about Next on here, it was never a real thing. Landmark was a real released game for 9 months.)

    H1Z1 on Forgelight.

    FreeRealms was Forgelight also. (oops corrected in a later post)

    Forgelight was flexible enough for them to feel confident to do Gritty futuristic warfare PS2 and Fantasy/Steampunk/Futuristic Landmark.
    Below may not be pure facts, but the best of my knowledge.

    They couldn't possibly have built another engine, given the arc of the sales, layoffs, etc. And they had trouble servicing tools they wrote or even getting web pages updated in that era.

    I think it could be capable of some pretty great stuff. But now modern tools probably offer more appeal and 'out of the box' 'more standardized' functionality.
    Jumbur likes this.
  18. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    Actually so many games have the voxel 'technology', or concept, built right in.

    Blender, the free modeling tool has 'voxelize' this mesh. And had it during the era of Landmark.

    SOE did not invent, revolutionize, or build their own version of 'Voxels'. They incorporated VoxelFarm code.

    Maybe you've heard of a game called Minecraft?
  19. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    I know what voxels is, and that it predate EQNext by decades. I played dos-games that used voxels(well voxelized heightmaps, if you want to be nitpicky) ages ago. :)

    What I meant was, that low-poly art and zones from EQ1 specifically, might not look good "voxelized",
    It won't take advantage of the strengths(like bumpy and curved surfaces) of the technology at least.
    Joules_Bianchi and MasterMagnus like this.
  20. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    Yes, I thought you might have meant so.

    What I meant in my response is, 'voxelizing' something won't 'look' better no. But when you have a model that is based on voxels, and then rounded in the render, you achieve different possibilities. One being a much more compact data format, for representing a whole world. As just one example.

    But back to EQ. No, I don't think EQ has anything to benefit from a voxel world concept. Nor would the models benefit from this treatment. As far as I can imagine.
    Jumbur likes this.