Can only DPS at about 40% of normal with new pet aggro changes

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Danille, Jan 29, 2016.

  1. Danille Augur


    So post a bit if testing conducted after the first round of pet aggro modifications to correct the issue I brought up in the OP of this thread finds that we have made some progress... but there is a tiny bit more work that needs to be done.

    Thanks developers for what you have done so far to fix the issue.

    The good..... :)

    We can now dps close to what we did before, so the constant use of silent casting is not as critical! Yay! Bravo!

    The bad...... :(

    We have historically relied heavily on the use of our RS pet to pull aggro off our main pet, when faced with hard hitting mobs. By cycling our discs and keeping a constant stream of RS pets on the mob, the mob would spend about 1/2 of the time hitting our regular pet and the other 1/2 of the time hitting our RS pet. This mechanic is broken. No matter how many discs we cycle, the mob spends 100% of it's time hitting out main pet and now totally ignores the RS pet and the RS pet is reduced to being only a dps source.

    What minor change needs to be fixed.... :/

    Make a tweak to the RS pet so that it's aggro is able to build to more than the regular pet as it did previously, about 1/2 through its temp life. (RS pets with full extension aa's last for roughly 22 seconds) So if the aggro grabbing mechanic gains the mobs attention at around the 10 - 11 sec mark, that should do it.

    (this is with the regular pet's "taunt on" setting turned on, because if we use "taunt off" we run into the 40% DPS reduction issue)

    Thanks so very much. :)
  2. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    Not that we're likely to get an answer, but I'd be curious if the dev team actually thinks what you're requesting here is the correct, intended behavior - ie using the very beefy rs pet to aggro pong between the main pet and the rs pet to spread out a mob's damage output between multiple pets. I get why you'd make this request, but could also see them say it's a little bit like pet walling (with one super pet instead of a bunch of weaker ones) that they've been apparently trying to stop (general pet mitigation changes, TLP, necro swarm changes, etc) over the last few years.

    Nice to see pet aggro in general is back to a reasonable state, though. When can I expect that Krono from our wager, Gnomeland? Can parcel to drinal.Sheex.
    Benzarden and Triconix like this.
  3. Danille Augur

    Yes that is exactly that the RS pet was designed to do from the beginning. Prior to the aggro nerf, it had far more aggro generation ability than the regular pet too. It has far more HP's than our tank pet, although lower mitigation.

    Function 1 - provide an extra wall for hard hitting mobs.
    Function 2 - provide a form of defense in case the mage has to deal with an add.

    If you think about the functionality of an RS pet...

    1) It is a temp pet spell (not an AA) and the RS pet lives for a very very short period of time.

    2) The RS pet's life duration was specifically designed for mages to be able to cast RS pets to serve as a wall or form of protection for both hard hitting mobs and in case we get an add. At the base level, the RS recast spell timer refreshes perfectly so you can cast another one just before the first one's life timer expires.

    3) The developers also made pet life extension aa's that a mage so with the first aa rank you could get a 2nd RS pet on the mob at the same time. The final pet life extension aa allows you to get a third pet on the mob all at the same time. As of the last expansion's aa's, if we try to get a fourth pet on the mob, the first one dies just about the same time it starts wailing on the mob. (with max aa's)
  4. Dre. Augur

    Where does swarm pet DPS rank on this list?
  5. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    Given that you even used the word "wall" in #1 is exactly why I pose the question. This team seems to not like pet walling. So the change may indeed be intended? Dunno.

    I've always viewed RS as a dps and add tank/cc method, since mages don't get traditional root or snare and pets are lousy with multiples. RS pets acting like a warrior using /shield on the main pet while tanking hard things through aggro pong seems like a weird side effect of a screwy system....sorta like being able to run into melee range if your pet was about to die so that the mob would ignore the pet and attack you. Can see why it was a useful thing in practice, just not convinced it was necessarily intended or good design.
    Dre. likes this.
  6. beryon Augur

    Are you sure about this? I know swarm pets never worked that way on my bst. I've always wondered if the devs were aware mages used it for this purpose, since the two spells are otherwise nearly identical.
  7. Piemastaj Augur

    They gave the pet Taunt when it first came out and it used it up until Underfoot when it was removed per Warriors requesting it. Having something spam taunt would lead you to believe it's intended to do more then just off-tank seeing as that would require very little aggro generation.

    I am unsure if a Developer said the intention was for it to be used as a partial tank on a single mob, but they knew full and well it was being used for that purpose since DoDH when we got the spell. Does strike me a bit odd they chose now to adjust this method of Soloing considering it was taken into account in any and all tanking adjustments for pets.

    /GU Combat Dummy Beza in 44s, 544k @12372dps --- Piemastaj`s pet 515k @11970dps (94.55%)

    ^Attacking a dummy from the front, not being hit no outside fun stuffs ect. Would be solid a couple expansions ago I think? That is going to be actually lower on current mobs while being attacked if the uninformed people in the thread do not comprehend that.
    Danille and Sancus like this.
  8. Matari Augur

    I have never used the RS for DPS - always for off tank, agro, and to eat melee AoE. I am not sure why anyone would use it for anything else. It's not effective for dps in groups. It's a mana hog.
  9. Enkel Augur

    Because it used to be decent dps. If you weren't using it for dps, in the past, you were losing out, that's a fact.
  10. Matari Augur

    I am looking at sustained DPS with a group mage. For example, dps for an entire HA with a balanced group. If you going chain swarm pets the entire fight you will be OOM before completion. Better DPS with rains. If your looking short duration, then yes it's ok DPS.
  11. Enkel Augur

    You said you have "never" used RS for DPS. If that is the case, and you have been playing a mage for years, that's just plain wrong. There has been plenty of times, and you still can, use RS in heroics, not go OOM, and still do more dps using it in certain facets. In the past it was even more pronounced than now.
  12. Matari Augur

    I don't know a single mage that didn't use RS primarily for it's defensive abilities. Don't tell me the Devs had their head so far up where the sun don't shine they didn't realize it. Once upon a time, RS pets may have been good dps in short fights. I don't really care nerf to RS pets, what I care about is the nerf to main pets. It's not my problem that this games business model sucks.
  13. Enkel Augur

    You're ignoring what I was addressing. I never said mages never used RS for defensive purposes, but if you "never" used it for DPS purposes, that was improper play.
  14. Matari Augur

    I have been playing off and on since beta. I think I am on my third mage. From RoF and on, I have not used the RS pet much for dps. Yes, it's ok short duration (especially if you have a bard). But for longer durations, rains are more efficient. My point is that using RS pets primarily for defensive is not cheating or doing anything dishonest (recent tone). Saying the devs were not aware of it... I don't think a nerf was needed, but I don't care about it.
  15. Triconix Augur

    12k dps is more dps than every necro dot outside of swifts without any burns or a dps right now last I checked. That's darn good for current, not a few expansions ago. Heck, that may be more than a swift outside burns tbh
  16. Enkel Augur

    I agree the nerfs were not needed, or if they were going to change it, they could increase the damage of RS pets so that their dps levels, for necros (mage pets are a whole slew of misfortune), were the same as before, but they couldn't continually throw pets non stop at named. They could have prevented that mechanic, while leaving dps viability in check.

    Again, if you were never using RS for dps you were most likely, I'm not going to say 100% empirically, doing it wrong. It isn't a matter of short duration; in reality they were terrible short duration damage compared to our rains and other nukes in RoF. They're essentially, damage wise, a dot. If we can kill a mob before RS has done damage equal to our DD, then it was wasted mana on a dps level. When it comes to long fights they were absolutely amazing. On raids, if you used them right (saw 2 mages use them properly, on raids, in the majority of situations during RoF), they were also fantastic for the sustain parse.

    Bringing up how many mages you have doesn't really mean much; I'm 99.99999999999999% sure I have more mages than you at max or close to max level, and more AA's on said mages. I don't care for the fluff in a conversation, I like real, applicable, information. Yes, RS could be used defensively. But it could also function as a dps tool while also serving a defensive function. Pretending they're, or were not, a dps tool is ridiculous.

    Me, I used it mainly as an offensive tool. And if you'd like to debate mage semantics with me sometime, I'd be more than willing to. I'd literally debate anyone on the function of mages within the game, their viability, and how to play the class in the most proficient capacity; especially on our ability to dps.
    Spellfire, Sancus and Iila like this.
  17. Sancus Augur

    Not sure the relevance of comparing RS pet DPS to Necro DoTs? I'm not really sure where Necros were brought into the discussion, but assuming we are comparing the two, if we're talking about the group game swifts are the relevant comparison. If we're talking about raids, comparing the DPS of one RS pet to one DoT makes no sense because you can stack more than 20 DoTs and only around 3 RS pets. Either way you'll never see 12k out of an RS pet in a real world scenario.
    Enkel likes this.
  18. Triconix Augur

    And either way, you'll never see a mage doing 40% of its potential dps in a raid scenario because of pet aggro nerfs. I'm pretty sure I was comparing group necro vs group mage dps just like this thread so obviously implies...

    I'd love to see a group parse of Rs pet. I'm highly curious if it out dpses a standard necro dot.
    Danille likes this.
  19. Sancus Augur

    This has nothing to do with Necro DPS; Pie certainly didn't imply anything of the sort. This has everything to do with the relative stagnation of RS pet DPS over the last few expansions while simultaneously removing its damage mitigation utility by decreasing its aggro. I guess we could try to compare the pets' DPS to standard Necro DoTs in the group game, but I fail to see the purpose beyond having an arbitrary and academic debate.
    Bobsmith likes this.
  20. Piemastaj Augur

    Actually, I posted the DPS because Dre asked about it. Reading the thread helps to stay on the current topic.

    Your upset about nerfs. We saw a similar loss in rains and pet stagnation for our DPS, and we were not nearly as strong as Necros were.

    That is not the point of the thread though. And an RS pet on a mob for 15 seconds? In a group does very little DMG. What is the mana cost on the DoT?