Can clerics please regain the title of top healers?

Discussion in 'Priests' started by Kialya, Oct 22, 2019.

  1. Allayna Augur

    So you mean like the cleric/Druid alliance are completely unused now? I don’t have a whole lot of faith that they’ll either give a new alliance to priests that works to 115 (frankly because paladins never saw an upgrade) or that they’ll make adjustments to the current one. So this is all conjecture.
  2. Mehdisin Mahn Augur

    yes, that's exactly what I mean.... modifying it to shift the useless to another class doesn't solve the problem.... so don't ask for that.
  3. Allayna Augur

    Convenient that the shaman doesn’t want the range increased on the other priest alliances. >.<

    They’re out of balance, there is currently zero reason to use the Druid or Cleric Alliance with the inferior range even if they are superior at total heal or a little dps.... you know why....because covering a 65’ area with 70 million worth of actual heals landing is better than covering a 25’ area.

    You know how much total healing they do? Closer to 150 million in healing, but it doesn’t matter if you’re full. The only power advantage then comes from AE RANGE.
    Kamor likes this.
  4. Wulfhere Augur

    Priest alliances have relegated raid healing to majorly shaman (or cleric) alliance + cleric/druid direct heals. Nobody calls a shaman a "shabby cleric". Druids are priests too, in their own (mysterious) way.
    Allayna likes this.
  5. Wulfhere Augur

    Not the full story. While druid alliance goes unused, there is a very good reason to use cleric alliance vs shaman alliance. That being the center of the healing rains.
  6. Mehdisin Mahn Augur

    actually that's the exact opposite of what I said, and if you had actually read my comments on the matter you would realize that. what I ACTUALLY said was that they should be made to be the same in both heal amount and range, and have different 'bonus' effects on fulmination. so that guilds could choose which effect they wanted given their setup. currently, druid is the only one that has an added effect on it.

    what I also said was stop asking for other classes to be nerfed and instead ask for the root problem to be fixed. the root problem is the imbalance, and JUST changing the range on clr/dru alliance only shifts the imbalance to make shaman alliance not worth casting.


    cleric fulmination has a range of 60, not 25 and shamans is 80. only the druids range is low to the point of uselessness. cleric alliance is still very much usable and if it didn't require clerics come off healing the tanks to refresh it then one can honestly say it is the better choice of the 3 options in their current state.
    Syylke_EMarr likes this.
  7. Allayna Augur

    No one was talking about fulminating....since it’s rare to see them fulminate. I’ll just post it so we’re all on the same page.


    [50039/4678] Divine Rain III
    Target: Target AE
    Range: 300', AE Range: 50'
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: No
    Casting: 0s
    AE Waves: 1
    Hate: 1
    1: Increase Current HP by 13641

    [50149/5672] Forest Showers III
    Mana: 10
    Target: Target AE
    Range: 300', AE Range: 28'
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: No
    Casting: 0s
    AE Waves: 1
    Hate: 1
    1: Increase Current HP by 14308

    [50252] Blessing of the Ancients III
    Target: Target AE
    Range: 300', AE Range: 60'
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: No
    Casting: 0s
    AE Waves: 1
    Hate: 1
    1: Increase Current HP by 11820

    The concept of overheating is apparently lost on you. The actual heal amount difference doesn’t matter when it’s going off and hitting more people in range....

    Where in all of my posts about this did you read: nerf XXX???
  8. Mehdisin Mahn Augur

    nobody was talking about fulmination? I was, so you're wrong there. but in any case, I guess the concept that the cleric alliance rain is only 10' different range (~15%, for ~15% more healing) is lost on you... and you effectively called for a nerf when you called for the range on clr/dru alliance to be raised with no other changes.

    i'm sorry you can't wrap your head around the fact that the cleric and shaman alliances are not significantly different in strength, and that you can't seem to wrap your head around the tradeoff in heal amount vs range... but yeah, i'm done discussing this with you.
  9. Szilent Augur

    For the years I led raids, the primary motivator for choosing to put Shaman alliance on tanks over their cleric counterparts' was that clerics generally cast more spells to trigger alliances, and so it made sense for shm to put in the alliance part of that partnership. Just on a 1:1 basis; if one caster is putting in the alliance, and another is spamming, then you put the better spammer in the spamming role.

    If it were practical to coordinate "cross" alliancing between teams of clerics, like, the event clerics putting alliance on boss tanks, and boss clerics putting alliance on event tanks, then that would probably have been my preference, to get the somewhat stronger AEs. It was (is?) more practical to have shm do the whole alliancing job.

    I really like that healer alliances exist, though. Top flight DPS on raids has been a team effort for decades but that was, arguably, missing from the play of healers, the most team-minded players. It sometimes takes focused effort from several, but not per se cooperative effort. I wish for all healer alliances that a more interesting fulmination could have been formulated, though. Maybe in the next round :)
  10. Szilent Augur

    the alliance splashes don't focus or crit, so the 2k heal amount is a really real thing
  11. Pano Augur

    They don't crit, but something affects it. I'm not entirely sure what, but I'd guess Paladin abilities. 11820 is the base value.

    [Sun Nov 17 21:24:47 2019] Someone healed SK for 12411 hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Sun Nov 17 21:24:47 2019] Someone healed War for 16193 hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Sun Nov 17 21:24:47 2019] Someone healed Necro for 11820 hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.

    It's still not that big of a difference though.
  12. Allayna Augur

    Basically what pano said: They definitely focus.

    As to medman:

    How is asking for an increase in range a nerf?
    Below is a 1 second, everyone that was healed by shaman alliance from a priest healing me.
    Not a single person was actually healed because they were all full health. Which speaks to the power being in the range of the spell not the heal amount. The broader the area the more powerful.

    You are right though, I think I've wasted enough breath trying to explain simple mechanics.


    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Thaddx`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Danrael`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Novastars`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Cragzop`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Cragzop`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Cragzop`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Thaddx`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Cragzop`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Babumpus`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Danrael`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Peckar`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Peckar`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Peckar`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Peckar`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Firepawz`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Peckar`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Absolutt`s pet for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Kensiy for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Zigie for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Ryuku for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Vyne for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Deadnotes for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Lukke for 0 (12411) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Clubers for 0 (10638) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Hofaith for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Blakn for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Elkare for 0 (12411) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Harelor`s warder for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Odiiusx for 0 (12411) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Stud for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Madcow for 0 (23285) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Kiillz for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Funkytank for 0 (12411) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Lipsyncx for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Danrael for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Sithsonn for 0 (16193) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Manyour for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Kissia for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Finnador for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Lianeb for 0 (23285) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Rusco for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Lumcea for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Novastars for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Firepawz for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Mazame`s warder for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Atacil for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Mazame for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You are healed by an ancient alliance. You healed Allayna for 0 (23285) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Gilderan for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Absolutt for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Garaddor for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Hekaton for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Blurberry for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Luvmy for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Ravanta for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Adarael for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Cragzop for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Caio for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Peckar for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Stagrlee for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Thaddx for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Remien for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Zaray for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Thaddx for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Cinexa for 0 (11820) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Lenn for 0 (12411) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
    [Mon Nov 25 20:25:31 2019] You healed Cadira for 0 (23285) hit points by Blessing of the Ancients III.
  13. Pano Augur

    The only case where cleric alliance is the better choice is fights that require to be piled up under a mob, like GMM1 because cleric alliance fires off the bearer's target and not the bearer unlike Druid/Shaman alliance. As for the rest, Shaman clearly is the superior choice as the range makes it better because most heals are going to be either partial or 0 heal anyway. The higher heal amount doesn't do much of a difference in that case, the range does.
    Gundolin and Allayna like this.
  14. Pano Augur

    To complement my post above, here's the data from shaman alliance on a warrior. 42.7% of the alliance heals are going in overhealing. At that point, it's better to just cover more people than trying to get increased healing.

    [IMG]

    This used to be true, but now there's a 2 or 3 seconds timer between each time rain can be triggered. A single cleric spamming remedies is enough to trigger it constantly, so the choice of whose alliance is not as important as it was when charges fired with no timer.
    Szilent likes this.
  15. Gundolin Augur


    Thanks Pano I hadn't ever realized this. :)
  16. Wulfhere Augur

    Lol
  17. Wulfhere Augur

    Since the nerf, it's pretty much impossible to fulminate any priest alliance at base.

    Focusable: Yes
    Duration: 2m+ (20 ticks), Dispelable: Yes
    Max Hits: 120 Matching Spells

    Slot 12: Limit: 1 Proc per 1.5s

    At base, without duration focus, it requires perfect attention to cast a qualifying heal before the spell fades. 20 ticks is 120 seconds for 120 matching spells. That means 120 spells, landing 1 per second, will produce 80 rains at best, plus a fulmination. The only way you ever see a fulmination since the nerf is because of duration focus granting more time for 2 plus priests to spam quick heals. The practical interval of fulmination is out around 3+ minutes. Big Yawn.
    Metanis and Allayna like this.
  18. Mehdisin Mahn Augur

    it's not something i had really considered before... but based on the spell descriptions, pano's right that cleric is the only one that says it casts on the tanks target... I haven't tested it so i'm not sure which is the case but it seems like it would be easy enough to verify/validate.

    BUT, assuming it is true.... I actually don't see how there's ever really an honest case where cleric alliance isn't better. Consider the following
    1- Raid positioning:
    1a - Standard setup generally puts your melee opposite of the tank. put another way, the bulk of your raid force will typically be closer to the mob than the tank on a given event.
    1b - on most events your melee will be standing at or near max-melee range
    1c - are there any events where your members stay piled on the tank side of the mob rather than the back? I can't think of any off hand.
    2- Differences in spell range:
    2a- The rain from shaman alliance is only 10' distance larger than cleric alliance.
    2b - Fulminations are only a difference of I think ~20'?
    3- Center of the healing rain: IF the cleric is the only one who rains centered on the mob instead of the tank then,
    3a - Shaman splash/rain has to reach across the distance from the tank to the mob + the distance from the mob to the raid force
    3b - The cleric rain only has to reach from the mob to the raid force. therefore, if the bulk of the raid is opposite the tank, then the effective range on the cleric rain increases by whatever the distance between the mob and the tank is... give or take.

    results: any case where your tank is standing more than 10' from the boss (how far away do they usually stand? I don't know, it's not something I pay much attention to), and you're using shaman alliance, then you're not only using the one with the least heal amount, but also the one with the lower effective splash range. This leaves the only real advantage to using shaman alliance over cleric alliance as that it frees up the clerics to heal / tick off counters towards fulmination.

    TL;DR:
    pano's argument actually strengthens my position that cleric alliance is better in almost all cases by negating a portion (if not all) of the range advantage that shaman alliance has.

    HOWEVER, if i'm going to be honest,based on the spell data I would be surprised if this was the case. The data looks like they're all targeted AE procs and thus would all center off the mob despite their spell descriptions.... and that would make this whole mental exercise futile.
    Szilent likes this.
  19. Raccoo Augur

    I've tested all three priest alliances, and what Pano says is true. The Druid & Shaman alliances proc outward from the location of the healer. The Cleric alliance procs outward from the tank's target.
  20. Pano Augur

    Yeah, with the lag in this game, it seems to be mostly 3 seconds between each rain from the data (a few gigs of raid logs) I've extracted. Some of this is on event where you have many clerics on a single tank. Alliance lasts 4m42s (282s) focused so with lag it'd take 360s to fulminate it. Without lag, that's 180s which is possible on some events but my logs show I haven't seen one fulminate in Q3/Q4 2019. That's kind of a problem.

    I've tested it again two days ago and the behaviour of cleric alliance is what I explained. You should probably go and test it yourself before saying however, shouldn't be too hard with 2 healers. When no one is being targeted by the bearer of cleric alliance, the rain doesn't seem to fire.

    Your argument seems to be based on the premise of one tank tanking one mob, without having people kiting, off tanking or the tank being static. It's usually not the case in raids, the tank isn't pinned in one place and will move around to react to what's happening around him. Often resulting in melee dps having to hit from the front or side. The bulk of the raid is always moving, many tanks have shaman alliance and are running around being healed. This is why the range gets more important, especially since cleric alliance will not fire if the tank has no target.
    Szilent and Allayna like this.

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