I don't ever recall a 2 way conversation with the devs and zerkers so how will the above ever happen? I don't consider being told everything we want is "Not our thing" as a conversation. I'd have no problem being brought in line with wizards in terms of Burn dps and sustained dps assuming we get some form of utility and the root and blind are removed so our burn can become as easy as a wizards. Notice I'm not comparing to rogues because they also play second fiddle to wizard burn/sustained and utility as a package. I actually quite like the idea of zerks becoming more tanky while staying in the top 3 classes for burn, it would be nice to see some of our warrior heritage
They're not "hard" to pull off, there just literally no current content that allows for it. If there was 1-2 permarooted mobs per tier in raids there would be slight murmurs about asking for root to be removed from Frenzied Resolve. However the lack of any permarooted targets since VoA has intensified the outcry for this limitation to be removed. Devs supposedly have server-side parsing, so they should be able to see just how often Frenzied Resolve is clicked. Then compare that number to the amount of times Savage Spirit is clicked. FR has a 10min recast, SS has a 11:30 recast so FR can be used everytime SS is up. I would be willing to bet FR is clicked less than 1-3% of the amount of times SS is clicked by berserkers. Frenzied Resolve being used consistently and without the root, would in no way unbalance Berserkers. its effect is completely seperate from ADPS so we'd still require full support classes with perfect timing to get our top burns. Why should it be that even when a berserker has full adps support, timed perfectly, can still have a burn ability blown because a mob gets pushed or has a knockback?
What am I doing about it personally? Nothing. Honestly I think the dps balance is reasonably close to where it needs to be right now. Not perfect, but it's never been perfect... and it's about as close now as it's ever been. I win burst parses, and drop off in the sustained department... that's life.
You *can* use this on non permarooted targets if the guild finds a good corner or the guild as a whole manages to control push properly. Yet that isn't very likely, but it's possible. That therefore puts it in the "hard" category in my book rather than an impossibility. It still largely amounts to the same thing though - the frequency with which it can be used it one way of balancing it. If you get limitations removed and can use it everywhere then don't be suprised if people start asking questions and/or the devs preemptively retune it. That said, I'm not sure if this is the big BIG thing that gives you the mega burns or whether other skills are the key ones there. If it's minor overall then it wouldn't make much difference (but if it's minor overall then there wouldn't be constantly calls for fixing it).
..... so when you wanted the BS crit dmg bug fixed, you all repeatedly brought it up on the forums and clamored for it to get fixed. then after it was fixed, you repeatedly down-played it as "a small boost, less than 5%!". if it was such a small boost why were rogues so eager to get it fixed? this is the asinine kind of logic your using against berserkers here. we want a root removed because its a stupid concept and has no place in the game. the fact that your fighting against this so hard without even knowing what the effect does is out-right trollish. here's a hint, go jump on a berserker and use frenzied resolve. parse it out and see for yourself what we we're asking for. then you can come back and have an opinion on it, but dont just say "probably a bad idea, but i dont know what it does so../shrug"
Maybe because it was a bug and what you're asking for isn't? Berserkers asking for the root and blind to be removed would be the same as rogues asking for the backstab penalty to be removed.
Im not saying they're the same type of request. I understand the difference between a bug-fix and a design change. However, both result in the same thing... more dps for the class. I'm saying his scrutiny of the request is illogical and completely contradictory of his explaination for why the Backstab fix was a small, minor boost which thus didnt need any retuning.
It wasn't a BS bug, it was a core melee math bug that affected multiple classes now and in time would be affecting yours too. It was also a *bug*. Root is not a bug - it is deliberate. Now you may happen to disagree with the devs on it, and for what it's worth I also feel it's inappropriate as it's just downright not fun to have such annoying things in game. I'm not "fighting against it" and have publically stated that it shouldn't be there before. However you need to discuss it with them and come to a solution. Repeatedly banging the drum of "we want it changed!" isn't going to help given quite clearly it isn't a bug. You need to justify why it should be changed. Don't bother complaining to me about it either. I can't fix it!
Apart from the fact that berserker top burst is a solid 50% higher, and that monk burst matches our own? I've posted numbers before, but no one has ever posted numbers to refute my claims so I don't feel I need to repost now just because you don't believe me.
Simply because the devs feel we need more dps and so the criticial hit bug fix didn't need retuning of our class (monks maybe, but I'm not going there...). Infact even after fix they still feel we need more work to bring us up to the right level, so it would have been daft to lower our dps to compensate for the bug fix.
Rogues can post very good parses. Are you saying that you feel your class maxes out around 150k burst dps? iirc that was a number you were claiming before the changes to bs. With the changes, the number has gone up, as you know.
I said 150k was a realistic max, with maybe fluky parses higher when you get a lucky round or something. My best (ie luckiest) atm is 180k, although the very same parse had a monk doing 195k (also very lucky I'm sure!). Yes it's gone up, but I don't have a feeling for what the new "realistic" max is without having insane luck. What sort of numbers are you seeing from rogues then? Or from berserkers for that matter - I've seen 275k IIRC vs a single mob (and close to 600k vs several, but that's different).
so 150k was your realistic max but then in the next paragraph you compare it to an anecdotal 275k... so for rogues their max is a "realistic average burn" and for berserkers its the highest number they put up ever in the history of raiding with them? this is why the devs think rogues are lacking in damage...
Berserker numbers are extremely high, as we all know. By saying 50% more than your burns, you make it sound like it's just rogues, or that was the impression i was getting. They're doing pretty much 50% more than all classes at this point, but their (our) sustain is horrible. And for top rogue burns, I saw one over 200k for 53 second burn. Not an average, but have seen it. Average I am seeing is around 170k-180k these days. The bs change was great for rogue, and I am glad it was fixed. That same fix though made monks extremely strong. Their burst, and sustain, is higher than rogue, which is not how I see the classes being balanced.
This. The last class I'd expect to sit there and defend zerker root is a rogue, Brogett. In my post that you quoted I wanted to convey that you shouldn't be comparing root and rear arc, which you apparently feel should go hand in hand. My wife played a raid rogue for a while. Yeah she was frustrated at the mob moving around and not getting her ideal DPS sometimes. I get it. These are two separate issues, however. ROOT IS MUCH WORSE. It's so bad I'd consider it a bug. I'm all for lowering our max potential, just get rid of the ******* root and replace it with a better "Frenzied Resolution" disc. I shouldn't have to get carpal tunnel spamming buttons just to get this stupid disc activated. Oh wait, the mob just moved an inch... /sigh. No class should be forced to micromanage a burn this extensively. This game already handles like a dump truck on 3 wheels...
What really sucks is that the parses from Valley, Pillars and TOFS Anniversary raid Valdoon Kel`Novar (last 3 raid events where you could actually root yourself) were more than likely passed on the devs by some other classes (people who accumulated empirical stats and relentlessly submitted them) and 2hand weapon ratios (along with being stuck with 16dmg 2hander dmg augs for 3 expansions) were stagnated in ROF due to a knee jerk reaction and "concerns over burst DPS". While many 1 handers combined have a higher ratio (plus the opportunity to add 20 raw damage compared to 16 with 2 1 hand 10 dmg augs) than any berserker 2 hander could hope for and usually with a lower delay. Also, to be a 2 hand specialist it is quite annoying to now have 3 classes (knights and monks) with 2hand ratios that are superior ratio wise to berserker useable weapons. With the monk/rogue crit fix, monks are hitting for triple digits with just their feet and rogues are getting triple digit backstabs with their dainty daggers but berserkers only get a triple digit anything only when they die or remember to hit Punch in the Throat before attacking anything (oh and now on lvl 99 and below mobs only). Meanwhile, raids have evolved and you can not stand in one place because if you do you will die (wild ramp and push) or kill the rest of your raid (emotes) or you are knocked across the zone due to knockbacks. The devs still tune us around Frenzied Resolve/blinding even though we can never use it, this is why the berserker community has repeatedly asked for the blind/root be lessened or outright removed/replaced via AA's/discs and why the majority of the community is upset because the request is never acknowledged or compromised (well if you count "Not happening" as an acknowledgement instead of delusional paranoia).
You're not reading what I wrote clearly: So I'm not defending it. I'm simply saying that if you want a powerful disc to become more frequently available then you'll have to try very hard to justify it. Berserkers are already the top burn class by a country mile, so it'll be a hard sell. If I was in berserker's shoes I'd personally want the root & blinds removed and be willing to accept a slight reduction in their power to get it. I'd feel somewhat cheeky asking for all restrictions to be removed without anything to offer in exchange. I also said that our positional dependency is like comparing chalk and cheese. You have a HUGE dependency for a brief period of time while rogues have a small dependency PERMANENTLY. They're both overall considerable dependencies but for very different reasons.
Part of the problem is that some berserkers have been putting down other berserkers and referring to the mythical 275K DPS parse that was archieved with audio trigger support that always support you on raid every day and got a third party program running. At the same time that beserker have multibound all his keys so that he cannot box, but heck what does it matter he can DPS when the stars align for 60 sec (less if unlucky on reckless abandon). Every berserker should ackknowledge that even good berserkers in good guilds never ever ever hit the numbers that we are so famous for simply because it requires a large chunk of luck and a being rooted perfectly in time to full disc. Jugging all those variables makes the class not so good to be frank.. berserkers are the bottom of the DPS foot chain and they are the ones sacrificing the most. Combined over trash and nameds a berserkers contribution is laughable. on just the raid bossess every once in a lifetime its great... for 60 seconds. why dont we just say it as it is without pulling the "I am more skilled than you" card
