Body Type woes? How the community can fix it:

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by MasterMagnus, Apr 27, 2022.

  1. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    Whether you are here because of Invisibility/IvU, Headshot, Decapitate, Assasinate, Pickpocket, etc. These are issues stemming from the Body Types change.

    The single Body Type per mob change is here to stay, here's the best, I think, people can accomplish if they want to 'fix' issues with this change.

    1.Understand the issue you're having completely before proposing a solution.

    2.Establish WHY there are a subset of one body type that have special characteristics, which enable a specific mechanic, and WHY that should not have been removed from game play.

    3.Propose a new Body Type that addresses the mechanic you're looking for. Preferably 'break-out' an existing Body Type into the relevant subsets.

    4.Keep in mind this is a vast task separating out mobs to be assigned to the correct subset.

    Here's an example:
    I think this should address Invisibility IvU and Headshot on undead target issues, by breaking out Undead into two categories.

    Undead Corporeal: Has a physical 'body', can be Headshot, can not see invis (because they use barely functional physical 'eyes' to see), is affected by Undead spells.

    Undead Non-Corporeal: Has no 'physical body', can not be Headshot, can see invis (by sensing the 'life force', not 'seeing' with eyes), is affected by Undead spells.

    Feel free to discuss or laugh all you like.
    KarmaKitty likes this.
  2. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Body types don't bother me, but they need to

    1. Retune raids effected by changes body types
    2. Relocate NPCs on route to another zones, so once again there is safe passage and rather than half the expansion unreachable. Mix of undead and live is bad, you only need to go back as far as CoV to see changes were made to give safe passage in the past.
    Velisaris_MS and MasterMagnus like this.
  3. Joules_Bianchi A certain gnome

    3. Test extensively before pushing a game breaking patch.
    Iven, Barraind, Fanra and 2 others like this.
  4. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    I think various immunities should be based on logic, examples:
    • Has a head --> headshot-able(mobs where heads are only decoration, like golems can be excluded)
    • Moves along the ground --> can be rooted/snared
    • Has a physical body --> can be stunned/slowed
    • Has a mind --> can be mezzed/charmed
    • Has eyes(and can't cast see invis on itself) --> can be tricked with invis(some animals get a partial smell-advantage, if you get too close)
    • Has eyes and is undead(and can't cast see invis on itself) --> can be tricked with IVU
    • Has a heart --> can be assassinated
    • Walks upright --> can be backstabbed
    • Is divine(avatar?) --> immune to most of the above
    You get the idea...:)
    Khat_Nip, Fanra, Fenthen and 7 others like this.
  5. Joules_Bianchi A certain gnome

    ROLEPLAY logic.

    Elyssanda, Jumbur and MasterMagnus like this.
  6. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    1. Sounds very sensible
    2. Repositioning is a HUGE by-hand task, changing all mobs named 'Shade' to Undead Non-Corporeal, is done with one command to the database (as an example).

    3. Yes, a must.
  7. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    Love this from a role-play (as Joules notes) and intuitive standpoint. I think you should be able to 'figure out' or at least have a good guess, how a mob will react based on what it 'is'. Without having to look it up (body type) online.

    Another issue this had me thinking: what are Zam and others doing about this. Are they updating their databases with the new 'body types'?
    Jumbur likes this.
  8. Velisaris_MS Augur

    The problem isn't coming up with suggestions/solutions. This community comes up with good stuff all the time...sometimes, REALLY good stuff. Unfortunately, most (if not all of it) gets ignored by the people who could actually make use of it.

    The problem is the devs. Are they:
    1. Willing to actually listen to and consider suggestions from the players?
    2. Willing to do the work (coding) necessary to implement changes?

    While some of them seem willing to do the first part, it's the second part I don't think they have any stomach for. Year after year after year of cookie cutter, cut and paste expansions kinda gives that part away.
    MasterMagnus likes this.
  9. Tevik Augur

    Maybe update the consider function to include body type? Might help with some of the growing pains as we get through the change.
    MasterMagnus likes this.
  10. Joules_Bianchi A certain gnome

    not for class / race specific /con checks, /con should just be relative attitude, level and difficulty.

    Part of the body type changes are related to lag reduction by reducing the on the spot checks and server triage of this data vs data limits. Adding MORE checks flies on the face of this effort.
    MasterMagnus likes this.
  11. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Currently some of these immunities are done by class, for example warriors don't see invisible, casters do.
    KarmaKitty, MasterMagnus and Jumbur like this.
  12. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    Yep. I thought it was clever that Chokdai mobs in Chardok could "smell" you, if you were in their face for more than one tick, and inspecting buffs(see invis buff?) on caster mobs should also give useful information. :)
    MasterMagnus likes this.
  13. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    Yes, interesting, is that because of a check on class, or a buff cast on themselves?
  14. Joules_Bianchi A certain gnome

    Interestingly enough, afaik any caster mob that would self cast SI was just given innate SI to reduce potential data shuttling, <but> some casters, especially in clusters near named mobs can and do cast SI on other mob types nearby.
    MasterMagnus likes this.
  15. kizant Augur

    I think you also have to make a case for why the change is needed. If your favorite mob can no longer be headshot and you have alternatives then go kill the other mob. If you're finding that there's no or very little options in an entire expansion of zones then sure that's probably worth pointing out.
    MasterMagnus likes this.
  16. Vumad Cape Wearer

    We fight magical beings with magical spells which imbue magical arrows. You should be able to headshot the headless horseman by shooting the pumpkin he has under its arm. Anything with a head should be headshot-able. If it is not intended to be headshot, it should have a model without a head. Tune a resistance check and put a helm graphic on it if headshot is not suppose to work.
  17. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh


    To be clear. I am not planning on presenting any proposal to anyone.

    If anyone feels issues need addressed, this thread is encouraging you to first read and understand, possibly talk over your idea here, and then make a firm case for the reasoning behind your request, hopefully supported with data or at least facts about the effects of the Body Type change.

    Make your proposal to the forum mod or dev you may know, after feeling you've seen a consensus of others who agree with your proposal.
    kizant likes this.
  18. Joules_Bianchi A certain gnome

    I think the "just cos it has a head' argument dies with constructs, ghosts and so forth. More than "haz it a hed?" is "does hitting it in the head actually kill this thing?"

    Shooting a cradled pumpkin of an animated force won't stop it unless the aminating force is sentient and animating itself. Is there a pumkin brain and Vagus nerve?
    MasterMagnus likes this.
  19. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    One might argue that just having a head is not enough to make a headshot a given/automatic thing.

    Anyone who has fired a projectile in the real world (as opposed to a laser) knows, the projectile has flight time and arc. You have to lead that shot, and you have to know intimately the way in which that creature's head moves.

    A dragon head on the end of a snake-like neck, moves nothing like a human. A giant's head is at a totally different angle, and the motions are exaggerated in space because of it's size.

    Just something I consider in the, 'if it has a head' argument.

    Also magic has been removed from the argument by the changes.
  20. Vumad Cape Wearer

    Solid argument.
    MasterMagnus likes this.