I would engage is a debate about it but you would have to understand that class balance is not based on what you bring to just raids. Throw every class into the dps balance take out tanks/healers/cc. Now you got rangers,monks,rogues,mages,necros,wizards,beastlords,berserkers. Lets take out the rangers,beastlords, as hybrids. We're left with Monks, Rogues, Wizards, Necros, Berserkers, Mages. out of them classes what does a zerker do better then them ? tank ? no, heal ? no, utility ? no, can we solo in group content ? no, can we take a merc out and beat anything relevant ? no, Do we got self heals ? no because they all have the same useless clicky. Now lets look at what it takes to achieve max dps out of the classes I listed. Can you honestly sit there and say rogues/monks/necros/wizards/mages have more going against them to do max dps ? None of them classes besides necros need anywhere near the ADPS berserkers do. You believe being blind/rooted doesn't matter and having to dot yourself and nuke yourself to use your disc means nothing. You think having the worst mitigation among melee dps classes means nothing. You believe our snare/stun are actually useful or that we have tools to reduce agro effectively(we don't). If you want to debate this you need to have an honest view of every class which I do not believe you have. None of what anyone here says will matter to you though. Tell me what berserkers do better in group/raid content that is not dps related.
Zerkers purposely put themselves in this area of having dps and relatively weaker or fewer other things like heals, utility, etc. It was stated numerous times when the classes voices stated give me dps or give me death that by forgoing the expansions, betas, AA chats when utility was the theme and not dps that you would not later be rewarded with more dps over others because you chose to paint yourselves into the corner by passing on all things outside of dps. Zerkers are extremely competitive in dps even after the nerfs on all but duration which is the necro realm. If your other shortcomings are an issue then its time to pull your fingers out of your ears and stop screaming when other requests come into play for your class outside of dps. Otherwise enjoy the bed you guys made.
Enjoying it every day. All this nerf did was take away easy mode which just made bad zerkers look good.
Rogues and wizards also style themselves as dps only classes. Berzerkers can stun, root, snare, heal. You say they aren't great versions of it, but neither are rogue or monk snares, roots, ect Gate or invis as utility? Sure, thats the same as buying a potion. You make up reasons that are really BS. There is no reason why berzerkers should do more damage than rogues or wizards. None. Ever.
Glad to hear it. If your competitive with other dps classes and are fine with less in other areas strictly out of spite then more power to you. But if you are still well ahead of other classes dps in any scenario I would be prepared for some further reductions at some point or boosts to others you won't see. Just like wizards eventually saw when they were the best thing in dps in any setting compared to other dps classes.
While I had taken a long break, I have been playing a rogue since 2000. I have always thought of myself as more than just a DPS class...more than just a toon with a couple of pokers poking stuff in the behind (I'm a dwarf, I don't get much above butt level). There is so much more to being a rogue than this. Sure, our role as corpsedraggers has diminished since PoP, but I still do it. Sure, DBG hasn't stuck a bunch of locked doors in new content, but I still will run out and open a door for someone working on epics or such. When a ranger isn't available in my group, I can go see what mobs are up, helping the group plan our camp. And when we do a CC, and no one answers because they are botting, I can go see where the bot group is. With a few exceptions, I can survive a bad pull in a raid, and let everyone know when it is safe to come back in. Or, I can go get that puller that went down. If loot is called out and you want it, but see invis mobs are in the way, you can die and I can get you to the loot and rez you so you can get it (sure, it isn't as nifty as a mage CotH, but hey, you still get the loot). I also am more situationally aware of my surroundings in a fight because my survival may keep a long run back if things go bad for the group/raid. So, sure, I DPS, and I am always working to improve my DPS. But I am more than just numbers in a parser.
sure zerkers can stun root and snare but what you haven't mention is that they all very short timer like 12 to 18 seconds while monks can heal them self constantly with mend epic and other abilities they basicly don't need heals on raids as far as invis and ports goes zerkers dosent have permanent invis like wizards do and instant gaves multiples that can take whole group to the bind point also they don't have sos like rogues do so they cant avoid see invis mobs cloudy potionsand invis clickies constantly droping so those reasons are actually all valid and may be good base to allow zerkers to do just a little bit more dps
Actually that's not what all the 3 nerfs did to zerkers all of them combines done around 75% dps nerf it not like all they done is nerfed Disconserting discipline also if we use our old disc a lot of them have never been updated they all old and kinda out dated and on top of all that some of them ether conflicting with the aas or over ride each other not sure if devs ment for that or what not.Like for instance Avenging discipline dose over rides our Blinding Fury aa ability because they both doing same thing and one was just better ,another is Brutal Discipline dose not stack with Reckless Abandon Discipline if you use ra and than trying to run brutal it just put the disc on cd and waste the whole disc which made it a lot bigger nerf you cant use all you could use with disconcerting discipline so those 3 nerf was huge and totally uncalled for they could just take away all the old outdated disc and ether combine them or balance disconcerting and let it run for 3min still to where zerker dps would be on pair to the EOK expansion needs and wont be back at TBM standards
I do find refreshing that you're attempting to counter another player's poor attitude with your good attitude, as a player. I don't find it super effective in informing the complainants' class balance argument as regards dps. You: try to work with what you have, don't feel like your damage needs to be arbitrarily inflated for your character to have value. They: dismiss as valueless all the buttons they never hit … It's just talking past each other; the perspectives don't cross to produce an objective take on class balance.
Well, the thing is, I am no expert on class balance or imbalance. Honestly, in playing since '99, even with my breaks and what not, there are only two classes I have ever played beyond 20: Rogue and Warrior. And I am by far not the expert in either. I understand that there are imbalances, but I also understand that there is jealousy at looking at a parser and not seeing your name as #1. And I think the latter needs to be addressed before the former can really be discussed. That is why I view myself as being more than just a rank on a parser, and recognize all the other skills I bring to the game, to be my worth. Now, with that being said, I do understand, also, that zerkers do not have much in the way of utility beyond hacking stuff to death. So, with this in mind, I never had a problem with them being numero uno when it came to DPS. I figured, given their lack of other useful things that other DPS classes can do (wiz ports, monks pull, rangers track, etc.), zerkers should be up there in regards to their ability to DPS. But egos, on both sides of the argument, have clouded the talk of true class balance, all based on who should be the top of the parse list.
You've gotten this "understanding" from players who do not approach their class in the same way that you approach yours.
No point in debating this unless you have an unbiased view of every class which you do not. The fact that you think an invis potion is equal to sos or perm invis is enough to know this.
I believe if all things are equal skill/gear/support a berserker should be ahead. A bad berserker should not beat a good rogue/wizard. You should not be rewarded for playing like crap which is what disconcerting was.
Do you not think it would be more correct to say a bad berserker should not beat a good rogue, monk, mage, wizard, necro or ranger? If any DPS class is played poorly, they should never out DPS any well played DPS class. Oh course definging poorly and well played is subjective, which is why calling for nerfs or calling to be the top is dangerous.
I guess it would depend on how you define bad. Maybe some think a good ranger should be competitive with rog/ber/nec/wiz that isn't something I believe.
Current raids are designed in such a way that burst dps is all but negated. There really is only one event (Droga) where there is a possibility of going all out balls to the wall burning and taking mob from 100% to death and even then mechanics are such that you are supposed to peel off to deal with adds. Several events have mechanics where mobs HPs lock and sure you can still keep doing "damage" as far as parser is concerned but in reality you are NOT having any effect on the mob total hps. Personally I don't waste disc/AA timers on these events when that happens. Screw the parse. The only way to have a fair and equal "test" of sustained dps would be to have an event where it is a straight up tank and spank on a mob that has so many HPs that it takes any guild 15 - 20 minutes to kill. No hp locks, no AEs or other to avoid / run away from, no mob self buffs that reflect spells, no adds to peel off and deal with, etc. Same can be said for burst dps ... only any guild can kill it in under 10 minutes. Current raid content is just deplorable for making such comparisons for all dps classes. Their are just too many variables in the mechanics that tilt the balance one way or another. In a lot of cases, as has been stated, it comes down to skill ... not only that of the dps classes but also of the entire raid force. Disconcerting NEEDED to be changed that was known and stated in Beta. It was an attempt to fill a huge gap in Berserker disc/AAs. The Focus line of AA has huge potential for addressing many classes old / stagnated Disc, AA, Spell lines. The revamp of spell lines (DOT's specifically) has potential to address dps issues for classes that use them but as we have all seen with shaman recently it also has potential to really throw class balance so far out of whack it is totally lost. With all of that having been said ... in my opinion this whole debate is just a waste of time until a fair and level playing field is given to us. Where skill and effort are the ONLY variables. Then we can have an "honest" comparison of dps and class balance. Then by all means tweak events so balance is tilted to favor one or the other.
