In outdated content, they're sufficient. In current content, no. If you want a dps class with tankability, try the bracket that SOE labelled as "light tanks" at various stages - rangers and monks. Both have better tanking tools available and both are higher dps than the primary tanking classes. Alternatively pick a pet class like beastlord or mage, as they come with their own tank!
Monks are probably the best choice for you if you want to tank and DPS. Plus you will have better survivability, the possibility to pull, and some free heals (mend) as a bonus.
No, not really Ulain. I did see your belittling post on that poor chaps Ranger kiting question though. Some green tea, 5-htp, and exercise could do wonders for your mood.
My ranger does not take dmg as well as my monk, all else is equal gear-wise (group), and AA wise (4k). Monk does have 200 more AC... But anyway I should qualify that a ranger could hold aggro better easily, he has more tools. But it appears he's made of softer, lighter, tank material.
Yeah, that's pretty much how it is. One other difference to keep in mind is that the ranger will go through randomized periods of being unhittable (except in cases of strikethrough) due to the 30% chance for their Deafening Blades procs to give them 1 tick of Weaponshield. This means that healing the ranger works best with a healer whose preferred play-style is attentive and reactive rather than spamming a pre-set combo. (Making an audio trigger to fire in response to the cue text for the special proc helps with this - something like "is protected by thundering blades" is the text to use for the trigger.) When that shield is up, the healer has a breath in which they can (usually) take other actions besides heal spam, which can be very useful. For a cleric healer, during the random ticks of Weaponshield is a fine time to replace Vie or HoT buffs that my have expired, cast a Promised heal, or (if none of that needs doing) fire off a nuke or stun. For druids, it's a nice chance to deploy a promise heal / nuke / sporali pet summon / debuff on a parked add / short-duration DS / etc. (Druids get plenty of varied options for making use of a window of time when it's unlikely the tank will be hit.) Shamans have their options for this period of time as well, though they're somewhat more limited (as well as I can tell, anyway; my own shaman isn't high enough to comment that much); if nothing else, though, you can fire off an extra Canni or a damaging spell. The monk tank in contrast has more (and more quickly reusable) tools for becoming either highly mitigating or highly avoidant on demand, which gives them leeway to control their intake of damage at the beginning of fights or during other key moments, and to offset healing burden periodically with Mend without interrupting their attack cycle at all. I would think that at the highest levels a tanking monk really likes working with a shaman healer, because it gives the shaman a longer, dependable window at the start to apply a fuller suite of debuffs/DoTs, without actually slowing down the pacing of the battle. And also because, of course, shamans buff pure melee fighters very, very well. Druids definitely like that initial window too (among other things, it gives me more time to lather the mob up with attack rating and AC shred effects); clerics seem to need it less but are unlikely to complain about having it.
I would think a Zerker should be better then a ranger or monk just because Zerkers are warriors in a way. I even think my Beastlord out tanks a ranger between the pet and me moving in and swaping and my fast reuse mitigation disc (i mean why give that to Beast if we are not meant to be better then rangers, all there stuff is long reuse). But all said, Zerkers for sure should be better then monks/rangers if they are not devs should fix this.
Rangers do take damage better than berzerkers. But, the other really important part of tanking - rangers have agro tools, unlike monks and berzerkers. While monks take hits much better than rangers, they can't really do much to hold agro over normal attacking. So if they lose agro, they can't snap it back to them.
I hear what you're saying, afterall even the class name stems from a warrior ability and they share some of the same class attributes (like innate crit and crippling blow). Originally they were intended as you suggest, but SOE realised no one actually needed yet another weak tank with weak dps, so they refocused them as pure dps instead. What it really implies is that SOE wanted a new class for marketting reasons, but didn't really survey what was most needed in game at the time. My own guild demonstrated two key things lacking: 1) healers were always hardest spot to fill in group and 2) int caster gear was always the first to rot or go for minimal DKP in raids. Conclusion: int caster healer would have been a better choice. (Hello Vanguard's Bloodmage.) However Zerkers are here now and their role is completely different. They're a burst melee dps class, and are VERY good at that role. They're absolutely awful at other rules including tanking. (And healing! lol)
He's not made of softer materials actually. They have the same or better AC over softcap returns as monks. Chain tends to have more AC than leather. Displayed AC is largely composed of agility calculations that are hardcapped at 250ish agility. So it's illusionary AC in that it provides absolutely no benefit whatsoever. Monks tend to take less damage because their block ability is the first checked in the defensive list and they have a high skill in it. Rangers have quite a few aggro tools - infuriating shot line, summer dew line, taunt, root, snare, debuffs like flame lick. I know many monks that drool over a taunt button, capricious a skill as it is.
Monk > Ranger. If you know what to do. Ranger > Monk. If you know what to do. In my experience, the ranger takes more dmg and is therefore made of softer chainmail. And the monk has triple reinforced leather therefore he takes less dmg. The zerker is really a rogue with a 2hder. This is what the zerker parses say about AC return: http://www.goberserker.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5709 Paper tanks like zerkers and rangers get a huge return on DI rounds and random dmg spike chances when they go for AC items. If my cleric joined a group that contained a Monk, Ranger, Zerker, the monk would be my preferred tank, the ranger the puller, the zerker the dps (hit from behind) and comedy relief for having to listen to his bragging on his burst dps. Disclaimer: I played all 3 to level 95, 4kaa/e.
What about a Ranger using a shield with max shield block AA? How do they compare to a monk then, and could they still hold agro with spells?
A good ranger is a better tank than a mediocre monk. I once watched this ranger/jedi repeatedly overpull, park mobs, and tank one at a time using bluster/flusterbolt, snare, vinelash. It was like he had hands everywhere. He also played in 3rd person so he could see any adds about to attack and took care of those by blustering them back. I don't think monks have as many tricks to deal with emergency CC like that, hence point for rangers' survivability. Zerkers have even less than monks. Zerker's only chance is to kill the adds asap (ripo disc) before anyone has a chance to say, "Eva--!"
Because they are not a tanking class. They are DPS. What defensive abilities they do have serve them well in a pinch when the tank falls asleep. They have what they need.
All this talk about Rangers / Monks & Zerkers tanking, but no mention of the Rogue, so sad, and Brogett even made a post. He must not want people to know Rogues make the best non-tank class tanks! - then again, maybe its just my Rogue, but i've geared him to be that way. The utilities Rogues get are quite amazing for pulling & tanking tho.
Fixed that for you, evidently you are not a berserker? Would be nice to have some type of silent casting (could call it ninja quiet!) since we can't mitigate anything or maybe a disc/aa that is either a massive lifetap return from weapon damage or damage immunity/rune that would actually stack with all other discs.
lol trying to troll? It's pretty obvious though: Rog and zerker mitigate about as well as each other, but zerkers don't get their own personal dps nerfed (we lose backstab, they actually gain a bit from riposts). I do however still use my own rog for tanking when I'm using a merc and "moloing" sometimes. Not because the rog is the best choice, but because it's what I have and it's pointless coveting something you don't have. I agree that with the right tools and tricks rogs can do "OK". Clearly not the best.
An obvious thing to give you guys is a combat ability that makes it impossible for your HP to fall below 1 for the duration but either doesn't last long or drains endurance outrageously fast (possibly scaling with how much damage you're taking, using a mechanic similar to how enchanters' block-health-damage-with-mana stuff works). "No Time to Die" would be a fine name for it. A severe lifesteal-from-melee disc would also be decently appropriate, though I tend to feel like the above would fit the class's lore a little bit better still.
How about an activated ability that adds mass Hitpoints, if you're below 30% when it expires you die. Basically like Rage from AD&D.
