Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by slugnuts, Feb 23, 2014.

  1. slugnuts New Member

    It's good to see the wizards back on top of DPS. Back in the day the monks were high on DPS and it is nice to see them back on top. Berserkers, Rogue's and Rangers are doing fine but I'm sure they one more DPS too.

    It would be nice if the Beastlords got some kind of boost, I don't care how you guys do it. We did get a big boost a while ago but it would be nice to get a little boost to keep up with the 200k DPS clubs.
  2. Momentum Elder

    I believe Stubar of Realm of Insanity has hit 200k+ with his Beastlord. I don't play one myself so I will refrain from commenting too much but they do seem to be doing okay from my perspective mana issues notwithstanding.
  3. Lighteningrod Augur

    This thread needs moar caps for its title!
  4. Recnarp Augur

    You should probably post this in the hybrid section instead of the veteran's lounge.

    Most responses will be from "pure" dps classes pointing at your lackluster buffs/debuffs and use that as an excuse as to why you don't deserve dps. However, I completely agree with you. In the raid setting, we are nothing more than a dps class as our hybrid role is pretty much non-existent. Maybe we should ask for better hybrid raid roles instead of dps, right? Then we're stepping on casters toes.

    The raid environment has always been an awkward situation for us that has only just started to level out in the past 2-3 years, but "that's what you get for being a hybrid!"
  5. Daegun Augur

    Not to be a negative nancy, but raiding is simply one aspect of this game. A pure dps class (with no other real function or purpose) should be able to consistently out-damage classes which possess other aspects of the power curve. If the red mage in final fantasy 1 was capable of the same offensive prowess as the black mage or healing prowess of the white mage, why play anything but the red mage? Along that same thought process, the glass cannon that is the wizard, rogue, etc should expect to consistently top the charts. Because ... at the end of the day that's all they do.

    A reasonable counter-argument is that some degree of that utility has been farmed out to these "pure" classes. That's the slippery slope of class homogenization, and farming out that utility (sometimes at the request of the glass cannon class itself) weakens the assertion that they should remain top dog in pure dps.
    Everyone who fills a "DPS" role on a raid expects to put out comparable numbers despite whatever else power-wise their class has. In a perfect world the dps pecking order would take into account all factors and result in similar clusters (not exact) listed below:

    Tier 1 DPS- wizard, rogus, berserker
    Tier 2 DPS- monk, ranger, necromancer (prolonged fights notwithstanding), mage, beastlord
    Tier 3 DPS- warrior, druid, enchanter
    Tier 4 DPS- paladin, sk, bards, shaman
    Tier 5 DPS- clerics

    I realize that one fools triage of how it "should" be is up for infinite debate, but I think most people can agree that the fewer tricks you have up your sleeve, the better you should function at your primary role.

    Unfortunately, with class homogenization, this ideal world is long since lost. For the raider actual contribution gets lost in the numbers game. Total numerical output does not equate to global contribution. Bards are the perfect example of a class who, by the numbers, look pitiful. Everyone worth their salt, however, appreciates that a bard is a force multiplier - most if not all guilds would always welcome another one even though they won't show up on the epeen charts. But would that <insertrockstarclasshere> individual have done so well on that epeen chart without bard support? Without beastlord support?

    Those are factors that the parser just simply doesn't parse.
  6. Muji Augur

    Not sure where casters fit in or the correct percentages. But I always thought it should go something like this for melee. Using warrior as base DPS.

    Knights/Bards = 90% dps
    Warrior = 100% dps
    Rangers = 110% dps
    Monks = 115% dps
    Rogues/Zerkers = 120% dps

    Not sure where beastlords should fit in. Maybe with the rangers? With combined dps from pet.
  7. strongbus Augur

    Back when I started this game(kunark) this is about how it was. Each class knew that on the dps/healing/tanking ranking that they all couldn't be number one.

    Sk's and pallies knew they couldn't take a hit as well as a war. And that war where better group/raid tanks then them.

    druids and shamans knew that their heals where not as good as clerics and that while they could heal current content they had to work more at healing then a cleric.

    the dps classes, knew that depending on the fight which one would be the best at it. for example a short fight would be a wizard for caster and long fight would be a necro. With mages falling in between.

    But with the class balancing stuff that has happen, now most everyone expects their class to be as good as the rest of the classes in their area(dps/tank/healing/adps/etc). Sorry it don't gota be this way.

    Class balancing was the worst thing that has happen to this game. I wish the dervs would get ride of it but I know its here to stay.

    To the OP I have raiding with a bst. sorry on raids you are not pure dps. With pos and fpos you have to target others to use it(for fpos) so your dps is going suffer for this.
  8. Langya Augur

    This is all people ask for on raids when they are not a Tank or a Healer. Things would be so much easier if that is all there was; 3 classes. Even then the Priest would want to damage like the generic Damage Dealer class or tank like the generic tank class. No one is ever happy doing their job.

    Thank log parsing for the creation of the artificial dps pissing contest that is now more important than winning the actual events.
  9. Phrett Augur

    You're a hybrid... sorry, but you don't need to be part of the "200k DPS club". High sustained, sure...
  10. Burdi Augur

    But from my experience, I noticed that all beastlords I met we're slacking in raid.
    I remember jitatha, a raid leader, he was so busy on organizing raid, yelling at people, inviting the late comers, that I don't think he could possibly use a single skill in the whole raid.
  11. fransisco Augur

    hybrid doesn't mean much anymore. "Pure" melee have yellow mana - snares, roots, lulls, mezzes. These are all things "pure" melee can do. Plus group adps.
    There is no real reason that pure melee should have a dps advantage anymore.
  12. Phrett Augur

    Let's all just play the same class then and have all the same abilities... you know, get a jump start on EQ Next.
  13. Ronak Augur

    The difference in power between the classes today? Mostly because a couple classes vocal leaders were able to focus on what their class needs to gain, instead of bemoaning the abilities of other classes.

    If you want to effect real change, you have to focus on your own class and what it's shortcomings are. Not on what you're jealous about from other classes. You also shouldn't shout from the rafters that your class needs compensation any time something remotely similar pops up on another archetype. Neither is a strategy likely to get you any change.
    Enkel likes this.
  14. Fansy Augur

    Who are these pure dps classes?
    I do not consider any with some of the following to be pure any more. fade feign escape evacuate aggro drop snare root stun debuffs ports runes mesmerize selfbuffs click pets weapon pets spell pets disc pets slows crippleblows leaps shadowsteps self invis heal proc heal clicks pocket healer.
  15. Enkel Augur

    Stubar is an exception, not the general standard of Beastlord dps.
  16. Momentum Elder

    If Stubar can do it then maybe the others need to look to their own play before blaming their class. That is just my gut feeling, however I will refrain from commenting on this issue further due to my admitted lack of knowledge about the Beastlord class.
  17. Enkel Augur

    The point, I believe, about wanting the join the "200k club" is about making it accessible to more than just the top .1% of your class population. A wizard can hit 200k dps fairly easily compared to other classes. I played a wizard for about 5 minutes and hit 200k dps (this was before the ethereal nerfs, but I have done it since then also). A berserker, with knowledgeable support classes, can hit 200k fairly easily. Just because one, or a small fraction of your class population (there are 3 I know of that have reached 200k (beastlord)), has hit 200k does not mean it is accessible to everyone. By accessible I mean having to have the perfect support and amazing RNG. Stubar doesn't bust out 200k every parse, not even close (if his class could every parse, you can bet your posterior he would). It is a mix of him having a very deep understanding of his class, perfect support, a good parse mob, and crazy good RNG.

    Stubar is the best beastlord I have ever been guilded with. What he can do surprises me every time we raid or group with each other. But it is something that is a far cry from common, to say the least.
  18. Stubar Augur

    I'll take that!

    In all seriousness. Can 200k be achieved by a beastlord? You bet. Can a beastlord do it consistently? Not by a long shot. As Enkel said, everything has to fall into place perfectly and the RNG needs to REALLY be on your side.

    Now to the real meat of the thread, Phrett mentioned that we should be good sustained and not good burst. I actually tend to agree with that statement somewhat, however in the category of sustained beastlords are stating to falter yet again with the assasinate/decap/headshot changes as well with the thunderfoot changes. All good changes IMO and help those classes with sustained immensely because honestly, you can't count on them in a burn to fire off when you need them.

    Beastlords are bleeding mana and are in desperate need of help in that category. Simply put, group paragon, canni, and focused paragon just aren't filling in the stop gap....period. During VoA I was a mana battery for the healers during those long endurance fights, during RoF I would feed the odd casters class if they needed help and asked for it, now I'm asking clerics for QM, the enchanters for 2nd spire, and consistently clicking mod rods and using every single mana return trick available to me.

    So at the end of the day, the thread title (minus the cap locks---sigh) does speak the truth, just not in the way the OP had originally intended.
    Phrett likes this.
  19. Terroz New Member

    While I haven't been in the 200k club on my beastlord, I'm satisfied with where I land on the parse during the short fights. (Likely because I read Stubar's posts and steal his methods as best i can.) However, on the longer fights the mana problem is just ridiculous. It's actually worse in groups than on raids because I don't often have the other classes around to beg them for mana.
    Romance, Enkel and Stubar like this.
  20. Ranar Lorekeeper

    we bleed mana at an extreme rate these days, and our focus paragon is so far out of date that it's not even a band-aid anymore. some help here is needed.

    Since the launch of cotf and the 2nd installment. Bst's have barely received any boost to there dps so far. our 3 spells given to us were all busts. a dodge disc (fluff in my book) , a combine buff of our 2 long duration buffs (fluff again, and most don't want the 2nd buff), and a focus version of our ae attack (with inferior numbers of our ae so not used).

    most bst's i hear / talk too all see other classes gaining nice bonus's. rangers benefited from the new melee disc/storm blades they received from launch of cotf. monk/rog finally got that crit problem fixed for there big attacks, and now zerk,rog,rangers can proc there decap/headshot/assinate attacks on current content.

    It just feels like we seeing the start of being stagnated again. old time beastlords remember the dark ages where we sat at the kiddy table for many years, and we just don't want to be pushed back to that kiddy table. we finally got to the big table, and elbowing to stay there.

    as for the utility debate. every toon now has utility. every cool utility in this game has been farmed out to ever class pretty much. there is no longer a distinction of pure / hybrid. when a pure melee can slow/mez like the rog. so imo that debate is over about 5 years ago.

    We aren't that bad atm i agree. We do have some issues that should be addressed, and hope next installment of cotf will give us the attention we need.


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