Bard Synergy

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Bigfan, Nov 30, 2016.

  1. Tevik Augur

    As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Tsaph's Insult and Fjilnauk's Insult share a recast timer, so it is impossible currently to "double up" the synergy proc. Even if it were possible, it would still be half the ADPS provided by other synergy abilities.
  2. Dermel New Member

    I'd like to see it tied to kick as well, but this same discussion was brought up in the beta boards and not changed. It's a mediocre skill, not my favorite, but better than the dot aa's.

    Tough to produce quality abilities after 23 expansions, I'd imagine.
  3. Bigfan Augur

    Yeah, I'm just asking for either more counters on it, 5+, or make it fire off of either selos kick, or another common song in lineup, like war March.

    Not rocket surgery.
  4. Sirene_Fippy Okayest Bard

    Some of the synergies are not straightforward to calculate ADPS from, but here are a few examples comparing BRD with other classes.

    For the bard synergy to be equivalent to the BST synergy in ADPS, the DD/hit damage bonus would have to be 36000:

    BST = 6000 dmg bonus * 20 hits / 30s recast = 4000 DPS per person
    BRD = 9500 dmg bonus * 1 hit / 9s recast = 1056 DPS per person

    BRD (adjusted) = 36000 dmg bonus * 1 hit / 9s recast = 4000 DPS per person

    Another issue with the bard synergy is the high mana cost of our nukes. I don't have a problem with high cost abilities in general, but many class's synergy AA are triggered by very regularly used and sustainable abilities. The Insult line is not an ideal fit for the bard synergy.

    I don't think comparing the cost of the two abilities makes a whole lot of sense; the cost of Maul (which triggers BST synergy) and Fjilnauk's Insult (which triggers BRD synergy) are based on what those abilities do (and not the synergy AAs). I'm going to compare them only to show that the BRD synergy is unsustainable due to bard's low mana regen.

    BST cost = 288 endurance * 2 casts per minute (60s/30s recast) = 576 endurance per minute
    BRD cost = 2517 mana * 6.66 casts per minute (60s/9s recast) = 16780 mana per minute

    Using my bard's regen values: 326 mana/tick, 120 endurance/tick (unsure on other's END regen, using BRD as best guess):

    BST = 1200 endurance gained per minute - 572 endurance used per minute = +628endurance
    BRD = 3260 mana gained per minute - 16780 mana used per minute = -13520 mana

    For a different example, we can look at the RNG synergy which triggers off Enraging/Jolting Cut Kicks:

    RNG = 12000 dmg bonus on skill hits * 3 hits / 19.25s recast = 1870 DPS per person
    RNG cost = 1200 end gained per minute - 1527 end per minute = -327 endurance

    ROG synergy triggers off Barrage:

    ROG = 16000 dmg bonus on skill hits * 3 hits / 30s recast = 1600 DPS per person
    ROG cost = 1200 end gained - 1354 spent = -154 endurance

    PAL/SHD synergy triggers off Repel:
    PAL/SHD = 5000 dmg absorb * 3 hits / 15s recast = a reduction in incoming damage of 1000 DPS
    PAL/SHD cost = 1200 end gained - 1536 spent = -336 endurance

    The endurance costing synergies can be regened by the above classes in 17 seconds or less for what they use in 1 minute. It takes a bard 4 minutes 9 seconds to regen the mana they lose casting 1 nuke for 1 minute.
    Nightops, Zaviere, Lanadili and 4 others like this.
  5. Bigfan Augur

    Yeah sirene, that's the point on the head, all other classes are sustainable and it's something they would use at some point at no detriment to themselves. Ours, we have to kinda go out of the way to use it, as we have no other combat abilities or spells like other classes,it's hard to judge, but I would say....insult is the absolutely worse choice..

    War March would be a great choice, selos kick though not same as other synergies as it is a aa ability..would be an awesome choice, even left as is. I dunno what else to say, just as it is, this ability is useless and not worth using in sustained anything.

    Fix it.
  6. Bigfan Augur

    I've since removed both insults from lineup, after getting all the aa's to make them "better" I still find it useless, and synergy isn't worth casting them.
  7. dwish Augur

    The main issue is that ADPS has been given and spread among so may classes, that bards really do nothing special anymore in this area. Yes, they have one song that is still desireable (aria) but they have been stagnated on ADPS for a long time, and this was THE ADPS class for many years.

    I have no idea why they decided to make every class in the game ADPS and give everyone synergy abilities, which in some cases are very good. Adding insult to injury, the bard synergy is absolutely pathetic. I don't think its unreasonable to allow bards to DPS close to actual DPS classes since many of those same classes bring loads of ADPS to the table these days.
  8. Tucoh Augur

    Giving everyone modest ADPS is good because it encourages grouping, but bards should be head and shoulders above everyone else.

    Or bards roles should be looked at and possibilities revamped. I think they attempted this in EoK by dramatically increasing the dot song DPS, but it is still way too low to be considered. There are so many ways that this could be done, but my recommendation to DBG would be to look at what bards could do in the original EQ, and try to ensure they can do the same thing. Personally I'd rather have a class that could do so many things and have an impact in many ways than to merely be the best ADPS buff bot.
  9. Zaviere Augur

    I'll be the first to admit that, as a Bard, I like having an excuse to nuke and up my personal DPS. Even though Bards are a support/ADPS class, it's still fun to hit things as much as possible and potentially beat out some other DPS classes who die a lot or just slack some nights. Basically, I like to do the absolute most I possibly can without sacrificing efficiency and performance of the main Bard role.

    That said, I don't mind Tsaph's Insult being the primary way to proc our synergy, but as previously mentioned, it should be made to be more than one hit counter. Or, alternatively, just give Bards more benefit from outside mana regen so we can sustain nuking an entire fight, as often as possible to proc synergy, without having to revert back to a non-nuke melody when our mana runs out so fast.

    And while this isn't exactly directly related to the original topic, it would be great if the Bard Alliance song could get another look as well. The mana cost is very steep, and realistically it takes at least 3 Bards in one raid using nuke-inclusive melodies to proc the bonus damage effect, due to the short time frame in which 3 or more nukes have to land. Not all guilds have the privilege of having that many Bards at one time (my guild included).
    svann likes this.
  10. Murphy Elder

    At least in the other bard whine thread you could get rick rolled. Geez.
  11. Zunnoab Augur

    I would not call 1000 AAs for well under 10k DPS mediocre. It's outright terrible.
    svann and Dermel like this.
  12. Bigfan Augur

    Since I doubt they will change it to another ability or song, I'm gonna start campaigning for more counters, 5 at minimum, 10-13 to bring us to other synergies level.

    Doesn't help seeing "so and so synergy I" either, I don't want to be left with an upgradable turd of an AA line.
  13. Reval Augur

    These bards have a valid point. Their ability should be at least equal dps here. Maybe it would have been fun to instead of a group synergy, make their ability something with a large single hit that only works on them, since they have so much adps already. Maybe like a 100k - 250k proc every 9 seconds for them to round the class out a little bit?
  14. Bigfan Augur

    The optimistic side of me hopes they left a 0-9 off after the 1, the pessimist fears the "working as intended" bs line.

    So just was wanting to see if others felt the same as me. And appears so with such a low population of players, and bards that visit boards(even smaller population of main bards).

    This is a issue.
  15. Reval Augur

    I'm not actually a bard, my icon was meant to be the tiniest violin. It's an incredibly long and involved inside joke. But I do think you have a reasonable point.