Aria, Epic, FE, QT thats pretty much it.. all been around for a very very long time. with minimum or no upgrade.
anyone have number crunch on what other class adps abilities add to other classes vs what bards add? i think only way we will get a serious look is if we put numbers up of what other hybrid & dps classes are doing with there adps vs what bards are.. Zerker aura + shouts Wizard manaburn Ranger stuff beastlord stuff
It's pretty hard to parse that stuff but say if rangers cheetah is used correctly for certain classes it can yield millions in damage. Beasts Dicho is pretty noticeable in sustained parses too vs a beast who never uses it. But tbh it's all fairly hard to parse.
i understand that its hard to parse but we need to show numbers with and without the adps effects as comparison. Attacking combat dummy with and without adps effects per each class Factoring in how often those effects can be used and the ballpark average those effects add We need people that have box accounts or friends willing to buff them to test the effects in GH's run the tests for the buffs real duration and click it off on what the time of the buff wearing off should be. I know this is asking alot but devs are def and blind unless we can show real numbers to them. The probably already know we are way behind but since no ones posted real numbers they arent going to invest time and money to fix it for a under populated class (Bards) unless its shown in public that its grossly unbalanced. Just from my own experience boxing a berserker i notice a huge dps increase even with no bard in the group. That just from the berserker sponging getting pl just using auras and war cry buffs
Mana burn is a flat damage addition, so assuming all of its counters are used (which is reasonable in a raid setting), it is a 2.4 million damage nuke (on any mob worth using it on), which then adds exactly 9.6 million damage to other spells. Worth noting it's only usable every 36 mins and takes 60k mana to cast. The others are much more difficult to calculate because there are so many different variables that will affect their contribution.
Just to give you a simple example of what Sancus is saying using Necromancers and Bards as an example. Necros love Bards, Bard Aria is awesome for DoTs, except... If Necros use their Hand of Death AA which provides a better bonus which does not stack with Aria. If Necros use their Blood Nuke (Procs Synergy) and it Procs Chaotic Power which again provides a better bonus which also doesnt stack with Aria. Aria doesn't modify Necro Swift DoTs either because they do not meet the duration requirement. So depending on the situation and the duration of a fight, a Necro can gain quite a bit from a Bard playing Aria, or nothing at all. That doesn't even begin to get into all the other aDPS/ability stacking that goes on in raid environments such as IoG and FE. They don't stack and IoG is much better than FE. So how do you effectively parse the with/without of specific aDPS/abilities from 16 different classes due to how stacking, availability, and time frames of fights can wildly impact their overall effects?
An upgrade to bard melee damage by 10k-20k would not hurt anyone, and be a nice improvement to the class.
They could even make bard damage unique by having it come from procs and having AA to modify procs. I really don't care how, but some way to make my impact feel relevant again would be nice.
That's why I dislike these conversations; they're really two different ones at once. Making you feel something is a whole different ball of wax from numerical adjustments.
A small dps upgrade wouldn't make a difference to what some bards are saying the problem is. It seems there are 2 camps: 1. Bards don't compete in parses (which means a huge dps upgrade which bards don't qualify for). 2. Bards are boring to play. They melody, and kick. A bit more dps won't fix #2. All the dps won't fix number 2.
Wrong. DPS will fix #2. They can give us more activated combat abilities to spam that do dps and maybe even a disc or 2 and a new AA to cycle for more dps which can make playing a bard a little bit funner all while increasing our terrible dps when a raid geared bard barely beats wizard mercs on burn for sustained in a group grind. It also wouldn't hurt to maybe give us a mitigation disci of some sort with short reuse like monks earthforce/Beasts Protective spirit since our AA Shield of notes is rediculously long reuse and junk.
This is becoming a bit too harsh on the bards, heh. They should get a boost in dps. Maybe not an insane one, but a substantial one. If you give them a cool ability that maybe even has a neat mechanic it would be best. I really like abilities that you have to figure out to utilize well. Those make the game better.
Sounds like you want playing a bard to be the same as playing several other classes. If you want the class to be mechanically similar to how other classes are played, perhaps you should play one of those classes with lots of buttons. Bards could use a boost. But the boosts should be in the wheel house of bards. Not in making bards another copied, generic class.
I'm not asking for copied stuff..... this is simply what a bard could use considering they're a hybrid why do they have zilch for disciplines pretty much? Everyone keeps going omg bards are the best pullers..... why haven't our mezzes or singling abilities been improved or pulling tools added to our utility that work on new expansions? Everyone says we're the best ADPS, we get it we're tuned around simply hitting 4 buttons and singing songs and doing nothing else but being an afkbot for groups and raids.
Like enchanters, your mezzes were nerfed awhile ago because they were too good. It wouldn't make sense to buff them back up to problem levels. And what is this about your abilities not being increased? You get upgrades every expansion like other classes. But if you compare yourself to berzerkers, warriors, or sks - your just in for heartbreak. No one can really compete with them. Pulling tools? Why? Haven't you noticed that tanks handle 3-5 mobs no sweat? There is no point in splitting, it is literally a waste of time. And this loss of pulling utility affects a lot of classes, yet they all see their dps dwarfed by tanks as well. So that's not a bard problem, its a game problem. The difference in play between a bard and a ranger? The ranger is more annoying because he needs to spam more abilities than a bard does. Thats just more mindless button pressing or multibinds. Annoying. Do you really want to just increase your wack-a-mole skill? But all these arguments aside, everything sounds like many here think bards should be able to compete with dps classes, yet keep all their utility. Sure its not as shiny as it was 10 years ago, but then all classes have lost some utility over the years, and no one up compensated. IF you want to parse like a dps class, give away the brokenly powerful fade, 200% run speed, best group mana regen (2-3x enchanter's), overhaste, 40% spell damage increase, ect. And I'm not even getting to activated abilities that are not up 100% of the time. Bards are crazy group utility, its just that no one here will admit it.
I love how non bards think how useful bard abilities are : IF you want to parse like a dps class, give away the brokenly powerful fade You are aware when they nerfed fade on all the classes they broke bard fade ? Bards could be next to a npc and fade right next to it and back out of a bad pull thats gone if we are within 60 of a npc we fade wont land and we get reaggro. , 200% run speed, your aware people can buy mounts now that are at 190% of our speed? best group mana regen (2-3x enchanter's), Before the dichotomic nerf id agree with you bow using it only adds 1 to 2% mana where before it was 50% refill per group member (yes sad). This is the main reason why bards are asking for the dps boost if we cant be the mana regen support then why hold us back. Right now beastlords have us beat with best mana regen with paragon. overhaste, 40% spell damage increase, most classes wizard necros have self buffs and aa that surpasses our aura effects. ect. And I'm not even getting to activated abilities that are not up 100% of the time. Bard epic effect iir this was nerfed as well as it was once higher?? add 12% to spell critical damage chance critical dot chance 12% increase accuracy 140% its so op..... Quick time 5 hundred hands effect 6 increase attack 300 9 increase chance to hit all skills 22% Fierce eye 2 critical dot add 12% 3 critical hp regen 12 4 critical heal 12% 5 spell critical dd chance 12% 8 all skills damage mod 12% 9 proc mod 300% 11 all skills critical damage 12%
I've sat through reading so many anti-bard posts, that I should say something because I'm afraid people might actually start believing the things you say. When was bard mez too good and got nerfed? I'm curious. Wait.. It's exactly the same as it was in classic! Amazing. I'm not sure if I should be suspicious that you clearly don't know anything about bards, or amazed by how relentlessly you condemn improvements to a class you don't even play. Bard improvements from EoK: - Songs: I do not use any of the new ones from EoK. Group cure drunkenness, Selos, Alliance (which doesn't work in a /melody), and a downgrade to our TDS charm. - AA: Upwards of 1400 AA to buy a marginal upgrade to our single target DoTs 1 focus AA which affects a song we use (single target DDs) 0 disc improvements, extension, or hastening -0.15s on our song casts I don't want to be a whack-a-mole class, but *something* more than one 10 minute reuse combat ability + our only offensive discipline from DoDH would be nice. 10 years ago Secrets of Faydwer came out, and we got this AA called Fierce Eye. [12519/5717] Fierce Eye ITarget: Caster GroupDuration: 60s (10 ticks) Song, Extendable: Yes, Dispelable: No2: Increase Chance to Critical DoT by 10%3: Increase Chance to Critical HoT by 10%4: Increase Chance to Critical Heal by 10%5: Increase Chance to Critical Nuke by 10%6: Increase Critical Nuke Damage by 10% of Base Damage8: Increase Hit Damage by 10%9: Increase Worn Proc Rate by 300%11: Increase Critical Hit Damage by 10% of Base DamageText: You feel an aura of fierceness come over you. Welcome to 2017, here is the current Fierce Eye: [48822/5717] Fierce Eye IIITarget: Caster GroupDuration: 60s (10 ticks) Song, Extendable: Yes, Dispelable: No2: Increase Chance to Critical DoT by 12%3: Increase Chance to Critical HoT by 12%4: Increase Chance to Critical Heal by 12%5: Increase Chance to Critical Nuke by 12%6: Increase Critical Nuke Damage by 12% of Base Damage8: Increase Hit Damage by 12%9: Increase Worn Proc Rate by 300%11: Increase Critical Hit Damage by 12% of Base DamageText: You feel an aura of fierceness come over you. You're right it is still nice and shiny just like it was back in 2007. Because it's almost exactly the same as it was in 2007. We don't want to parse like a DPS class. We just want to contribute something meaningful. Does "not being a DPS class" mean I should do 0 DPS? I don't think you understand what the fade nerf did to bards, so let me explain. Here is what bard mana regen looks like (at the time of the fade nerf), compared to a cleric for example: As you can see, bard mana regen sucks.Here is what the fade cost increase looks like if you graph it along with bard's personal mana regen by expansion: As you can see, the higher level you get, the more significant the cost becomes. Kind of opposite the way old abilities usually work, isn't it? Here is a graph of the time it takes to regen 1 fade: At level 105, when fade was nerfed it took 222 seconds to regen 3155 mana (3 min 42 seconds). What's the reuse on mage fade? 3 minutes. You sound like the warrior crew who constantly begs for mage pet nerfs. Never satisfied until the class is burned to the ground. We kind of did "give it away" to every other class in the game, would you like to have our 3155 mana cost attached to your fade AA (and bard mana regen with it)? Be my guest. Here's a table I made in EoK beta as feedback to our new Selo song: Nothing changed in beta or since then. I don't use the new song because the benefit is so marginal compared to our regular Selo AA, which is comparable to the variety of runspeed abilities you see above. So please don't use the argument that we should "give away our runspeed" - it's mostly already been given away. I'll give you this one, and I think ENC could use a boost in group mana regen. But at the same time, I don't think mana regen buffs matter as much as they used to. Between Reclaim Energy, Harvests/Claw/Chaotic Fire, Death Bloom, there's not much of a need for group mana regen in the caster world. Like you said, the game has changed. - clicky 17% overhaste from Ancient Cloak of Flames - clicky 25% overhaste from Burning Salad - BER - 25% overhaste for ~9 minutes from Desparation - MAG - 25% overhaste for their pets from Frenzied Burnout (level 70) - RNG - 20% overhaste for their group from Group Guardian of the Forest - RNG - 25% overhaste from Guardian of the Forest - ROG - 25% overhaste proc from Possessed Dreadstone Assassin's Knife - MAG - Conjurer's Synergy - 50% - (1 hit, fire DDs, group) - MAG - Heart of Flames - 85-135% - 4? minutes - fire spells - MAG - Elemental Union - 85-105% - 2.5? minutes - fire spells - NEC - Hand of Death - 30-120% - 1? minutes - 24s+ duration DoTs - RNG - First Spire of the Pathfinders - 66% - 1.5 minutes - SHD - Reinforced Malaise - 80% - 1? minutes - 24s+ duration DoTs - SHD - Visage of Decay - 55% - 1? minutes - SHD - Unholy Aura Discipline - 100% - 5 minutes, Lifetaps only - SHD - Remorseless Demeanor killshot proc - 100% - Lifetap (1 charge) - WIZ - Kerafyrm's Prismatic Familiar - 40-60% Here they are: - Spirit of Vesagran (Bard 2.0) - 12% Crit DoT, DD chance, +140 Accuracy - Fierce Eye - see above (hint - its overrated) - Quick Time - 14.5% Decrease Weapon Delay, 380 ATK, +25% Hit Chance - 2nd Spire - + 2000 spell dmg bonus - 3rd Spire - + 75 melee dmg bonus - Funeral Dirge - +22% Hit Damage Taken Aside from marginal DPS increases from most of these, the main one where bards have been overtaken is Decrease Weapon Delay - - BST have Ruaabri's Fury (33.8%) and Dichotomic Fury (33.8%), which lasts ~25s and has a 60s refresh time. - MNK - Fists of Fury proc (33.8%) - ROG - Strike Fury proc (33.8%) Crazy like these? - BER: War Cry, Dichotomic Bloodsplash - BST: Ruaabri's Fury, Dichotomic Fury, Group Bestial Alignment, Ferocity, Primalist's Synergy - DRU: spell damage bonus aura, Group Spirit of the Black Wolf - ENC: IoG, Beguiler's Synergy, Mana Flare aura, 3rd Spire, Twincast Aura, Chromatic Haze - MAG: Conjurer's Synergy - MNK: Master's Synergy - NEC: Defiler's Synergy - RNG: Scarlet Cheetah Fang, Outrider's Synergy, Auspice, Group Guardian of the Forest, Third Spire - ROG: Blackguard's Synergy - SHM: 2.0, 3rd Spire, Lion - WIZ: Evoker's Synergy, Mana Burn That's just group ADPS abilities, I won't even start on vanilla utility. Just for completeness, there is a post about ADPS from songs with some info on how much those add.. you won't be impressed. If, after reading this, you still think bards are ridiculously overpowered and don't deserve an upgrade of some kind, it's a lost cause..
wow post more graphs. I bet I could make miss-leading graphs to show whatever I feel like too. Look mom, no hands... whatever.... Bard mez got nerfed the same time as enchanter mez. Apparently you didn't play a bard a few years ago when bards could easily mez lock multiple creatures. Hence mez getting nerfed. 1. Just because you don't know what someone is saying doesn't mean your right.... 2. It doesn't matter what is said, because this isn't a discussion. Anyone who disagrees with the idea that poor bards are worthless is considered a troll. I suggest you find a mirror =)
See, the nice thing about graphs is we use them to make an argument. The graphs are considered "evidence," since most people live in an evidence based reality. We use evidence, graphs and parses to make arguments about things like pets getting nerfed on Test. Pet tanking, which came under heavy fire in 2014, was defended by many people using graphs, parses, and spreadsheets, including some people who don't even play mages. But I guess you didn't play a mage back then, so you wouldn't know what I'm talking about. =) I was playing on the Fippy server during VoA, but I did hear about this. And you know, there is a big difference between bards being able to AE mez 6 mobs for more than 30 seconds straight, and whatever other mez nerfs have occurred in this game. Nice to know that mezzing anything for more than 30 seconds is OP and should have been nerfed, though. Gotta set the bar nice and low so our OP bard abilities don't intimidate anyone. I don't know what you're saying here, so yeah, I guess my whole post is wrong. Oops Oh I thought this was a discussion forum, for, you know, discussions. Thanks for clearing that up for me. BTW feel free to respond with a sliver of evidence for your argument about bards being massively OP, I'm really curious. =)
A start I could see in the right direction for burns, make insults instant cast. It's how beastlords does insane numbers ATM with Al'eles and insta cast dots.. Doesn't take much thought or time to hurl an insult!
