Bard DPS increase required..

Here's the real deal: In a perfect group, with 6 real players that play well, a bard's aDPS may come close to equaling, or maybe even possibly being slightly more than a decently played t1 DPS class.

However, the percentage of total play time that bard being in a 'perfect group' scenario are low, and lower still that the group is doing something the bard him/herself need or want to do. Add to that, that no other player can 'see' how much the bard is contributing on the parse without guessing what their DPS would be in the group without the bard and on the surface it only appears that the bard is contributing their personal DPS, and you can easily see what the problem is.

Anyone that has ever played a bard as a true main, will tell you that they desperately need personal DPS upgrades, and have for many many years.

Anecdotally:

When I started playing EverQuest, I was a main wizard. Never mind that character, never passed level 15, and was PLed anyhow. I was really a magician.

So when I started playing EverQuest, I was a main magician. I progressed to the mid-50s, and was occasionally puzzled by folks admiring what a good group "this" was. I was a good magician, so monsters I was engaged with died with reasonable alacrity. I never understood, you see, until I main-switched to shaman in Luclin, that random *ss groups didn't always benefit from the presence of a skilled DPS class, and so mobs didn't always die with that alacrity. Groups weren't always Good.

With absolutely no gap, I suddenly understood the problem of perspective. Groups without me as a magician had problems with mobs that didn't die. Groups without me as a shaman had problems with mobs that were too tough. There's no leap at all to be made in realizing that groups without ____ (fill-in-class-here) have problems that groups with a competent player of that class never have. There's some interchangeability. More interchangeability since good class balance work has been done. But still.

If you're a [good] main bard, you've never experienced groups without a [good] bard. That's a Big Difference.

Since developing even the limited capacity of a bot (Camraderry, also linked below), outside raids, I basically Don't Leave Home Without It.

Higher personal DPS would certainly be welcome.

But Bards are Good.

What bard nerfs have there been recently?

Aside from the fact that like monks, they've almost stagnated. Songs and other parts of their toolkit have not received the same power jumps as other classes. At this point, I'm convinced you have it out for any class you don't play and/or are just here to troll.

That was an honest question.

I don't play a bard, but the fact that almost every thread in this forum has posts that either say (poor worthless bards, or poor worthless monks, or other hyperbole) drew me to it.

Also, not getting upgrades as powerful as you want does not make it a nerf.

Been a main bard for years. Grouped and raided at the highest level. The problem isnt really that Bards are not powerful enough. Obviously they are still plenty desired so their absolute power is okay. Maybe not amazing but okay.

The real problem, as I see it, is that too much of that power comes from a small number of very mechanically simple abilities. This is mostly a problem in raids where a bard is not expected to pull, CC, off tank etc. In raids a bards power comes from roughly 5 abilities - Aria, Epic, Fierce Eye, Quicktime, Funeral Dirge. Most of those abilities have a long cooldown of 2-10 minutes and /melody makes Aria have a similar required user input as the long cooldown abilities. This means that most of a bards power (probably approaching 90%?) comes from about two or three buttons pushed per minute.

This doesnt make bards weak, it does make them inactive and rather unrewarding to play on raids.

I dont think most bards really care THAT much about increasing their personal DPS. We would be just as happy to find the opportunity for an active playstyle in any other arena. Its just DPS is the easiest one to think about adjusting. Devs could give bards active DPS abilities that doubled their current DPS and it wouldnt be terribly unbalancing but it would give bard players something more valuable to actively engage in!

I've been slacking, up we go.

seriously Fohpo, stop it.
This can get you suspended. Its against forum rules to continuously bump things

I've read them, I'm aware of the consequences. I also find it funny you're telling me to stop based on forum guidelines when you've so blatantly ignored the part about calling for blanket nerfs in your crusade against tanks. I get it, you don't want to see the thread - but there are plenty of us that would like to see a dev respond to either this or the monk thread.

https://www.youtube.com/results?q=we don't negotiate with terrorists

Again Brohg, I ask, why do you bother posting?

We could easily ask the same thing.

No it is not. Bards are a bottom tier dps class, top tier adps & utility class, and are perfectly fine where they are. If you wanted something different, play something different.

Convinced you're just out to troll now. They were at one point a top tier support, but as other classes that offer damage to groups had utility and support added to their toolkit... roles changed. That argument is pretty weak at this point.

You really are discounting what you have because it's not what you want a bit here Fohpo. If you want to be massive dps, and all these bard things aren't important, then another class is the way to go. I've done the same thing in the past, and to a degree I agree with you. Pulling currently means a bit less than it used to, but it can still matter if you don't have some super tank.

Anyways, this discussion is only going to get interesting once people suggest changes to bards outside of "moar dps". What if they could copy one spell or ability for somewhere from 1-3 uses from a groupmate? That's obviously utility since it could be a heal, a nuke, a mez, a buff, an aura... anything. That is not only powerful enough when used right to put bards back near the top, it's also really cool.

Or maybe bards could get a flat dps increase, but that works differently. Beastlords get damage percent mods mostly with a bit of raised minimum hits. Rangers get damage bonus mods. Maybe Bards could get something that deals much more damage the higher health a mob is? This really gives them interesting use cases and strategies. Mez now becomes more useful as they can pull 3 mobs and beat them all down to say 70 or 60% for the biggest bonus and then mez the ones the rest of the group isn't currently fighting (or like 10 mobs with current tanks heh). I like this idea because it adds a new view and situation to how dps'ing is done. It isn't just "here have more crits" (I would say that is an option but that seems to be more or less what berserkers get, so not very unique).

I'd support bards DPS going up but with no burn ability.

Also if Bards get more dps I think rangers should get bard speed. Not serious, but serious =x

I think bards have utility, just better sustained would be nice. I'm not saying they beat rangers or other hybrids on meters, but bard dps gains did not match adps gains of other classes.

You mean besides the huge nerf to the dichotomic one?

Bards were content with the nitch this one ability gave them it was there main support ability. With this one song we were a death recovery mana tank endurance tank refill beast. It let us increase dps in groups and in raids by allowing the highest damage mana abilities to be used virtually unlimited.

While it may have been over powered it did give bards a sense of purpose and a feeling they were doing a vital roll in groups that was visible to them.

When we lost this it left bards looking at ways to find use other abilities to adjust. The idea that our dps was still so god awful was mitigated by the fact we had that as a ultimate support tool. With it gone its not really justified any more.

Rangers have dps and adps utility a s well as cc fluster pulling..
Beasts have dps and adps utility
Zerkers have dps and adps abilities
Wizards have dps and adps
see where this is going???

The devs farmed out to much adps to other classes this minimizes our adps role.
They gutted out #1 support utility ability.

That ability was not a design error it was intended based on event mechanics and mana and end drain effects based in the TBM expansion without that ability many events both group and raid would have been unachievable.

The nerf was used to force bars that wanted a fix to the mana recovery nerf of the dichotomic to buy the new exp and get the new mana recovery disp.

While decent is still not on par with what we lost as it has no end recovery.



We arent asking to be top dps we just want some abilities that can get us competitive with the other hybrid class dps.

3 or 4 additional personal dps disp that we can either pace out to extend dps out or stack for burns in a oh moment.


As far as nerfs through admission

our DS song has not been upgraded

our melee runes are no longer usable due to lack of upgrade ( they are ties to a 2k rune max iir that wouldn't even be a speed bump on mobs hits.

our song proc effects are to low or the effects of our proc songs aren't wanted due to how that interfere with better proc abilites such as enchanters.

I really dont think most of you understand how low bard dps really is. That dont play a bard.

Some suggestions i have would be

"inspiration"- effect gives each group member a 8-10 second song buff that gives each member a increase to base damage and crit rate and proc rate with a added damage proc.

Say 20% increase accross board

This will not stack with current aa epic

Roar of the crowd
When it wears off group the bard gets a stacking buff from each member +20% from each member This might seem like alot but even a 100% increase to the bards damage for 8 to 10 seconds will only get us about low even with the rest of the Hybrids.



Defensive group song "echo of protection"
15% damage mitigation no rune effect reflects 10% damage back to target

Homeboy here nailed it, bards just haven't gotten anything added that really makes them feel like they contribute (more than they have previously, stagnation). Other classes have been given so much aDPS and power that relatively speaking, a bard just doesn't have that "gratifying" button to press. Watching other classes go into burns or activate some ability gives some sort of "ah yes" moment and stuff happens. I don't have that feeling anymore when I play my bard.