Ban players from this "The Veterans' Lounge" ..

"...made up for by sheer volume." Yes, I respond to the sheer volume of pro-cheat threads (5 or more pro-cheat threads last week).

The pro-cheat posters seem to be affected enough by the persuasiveness of my arguments to follow me around. Lol.

"We just don't want our opinions overshadowed by repetitive posters." In other words, "we don't want dissenting anti-cheat opinions: please keep quiet as we run roughshod over the forums to push to normalize cheating in game."

spells i could not delete did not matter, i was posting about the ones that could be deleted, those were not working properly and would not delete like they said they would
as i said, you had no place posting at least 10 times in my thread trying to make me do what you wanted, you were wrong to harass me that way so stop trying to justify it
people like you are why i have backed off a lot from these forums
.

It's your blanket assertion that anyone you don't agree with that has New User under their name is automatically a cheater creating a new account. You then doubled and tripled down that something wasn't true based entirely on the fact that you felt people would have said something if it was true.

And I am still unsure as to why you refused to provide any details such as names of which spells you tried to delete. I wasn't trying to harass you but get information that might have enabled others to help you figure out what is going on.

Except that is not at all what I said. I never said anything stating that new users are cheaters or anything close to that. All I said was that some users create new accounts in order to post on the forums when their main account can't. What about that sentence suggests I am saying that is what all new accounts are?

The amount of projection/hypocrisy in this twisting of a statement (a habit you repeat quite frequently) is

astounding. Reverse it and it makes more sense: "We don't want dissenting pro-boxing opinions: please keep quiet as we run roughshod over the forums to push to ban players who use automation tools."

I don't want to be here arguing this. For years I've been merrily playing EQ with honest intentions of being a force of good in the game. I try to stay out of people's way for quests, named camping, and heavily camped zones. When I notice someone even enter a zone I'm in, I'll usually ask what they're hunting for and to let me know if I'm in the way. People know I box but I'm a helpful person in both guild and general chats, active in the economy as one of the major tradeskillers on my server, and act as a positive role model for the other boxers in my guild who are constantly reminded about good etiquette. While I haven't been a prolific poster here, an occasional post about necro stuff (my main), I mostly do not get any enjoyment out forumquesting as the people on this forum are curmudgeony, pedantic, and post with a very low signal-to-noise ratio. For years, I and people like me have been subsidizing single account players while the boxing community maintained an understanding with the powers that be at DPG: what you're doing will not be officially sanctioned but as long as you don't cross certain specific red lines then we won't take action against you.

For this very reason, you'll notice that boxers have not been vocal on these forums in the past, and for good reason: we were happy with the negotiated terms and DPG didn't want to shine a spotlight on it and drum up endless controversy. This is consistent with DPG's actual behavior - official messaging from DPG was vague and/or nonexistent, EULA and TOS remained vague allowing ultimate discretion for discipline, and account suspensions were usually related to AFK-checks or hacking detection (so-called "active hacks" like warping). However, over the years, for reasons unknown to me, DPG became too lax about enforcement of the "do-not-cross" lines. More and more perma-camped boxers were monopolizing camps without apparent action. Such activity, complained about even in the automation forums, brought reasonable offense to both single-account players and standard boxing crews alike.

While the boxers tended to remain silent on these forums, a handful of vocal forumquesters beat a continual drum of anti-automation sentiment. It is now my belief that our silence or lack of participation on these forums was a strategic mistake. By staying silent and enjoying the privileges of gray-area implicit consent, we apparently gave the impression that the anti-boxer opinion was the predominant or default opinion. It's not. There are many more of us than you're aware, and when we come to protest a recent change of attitude by DPG, we get hurled insults at by self-righteous white knights who baselessly insist that we're coordinating attacks or creating fake accounts. Well no more for this boxer. In order to preserve the game I love, I will be equally vociferous at defending what I believe to be a legitimate way of playing the game. I'm not afraid of your opinion, Benito, but now you'll hear mine and hopefully others in equal doses.

Except you don't decide on the rules for the game. DPG or DBG or whomever decides. And while we can call them out for inconsistent punishments and enforcement, that truth alone remains- we play in THEIR world, not YOUR world. And if anyone decides to do things that are against the EULA, they are subject to punishment. We can disagree with what we think the rules should be, but it is irrelevant- they are the masters of the game. Not you. Not me.

I am curious when DBG stated that one person playing six toons with five of them fully automated using a third party software/hardware was acceptable on Live. I think I missed that announcement in 22+ years of playing. Maybe you can help find that?

Botting (automation) does not equal boxing. It is perfectly acceptable to use ALT+TAB without 3rd party software. (Though, I expect you to conflate key broadcasting software with automation software to threaten/chain-gang other segments of the playerbase).

Automation is cheating. Period. Automation grants advantages to gameplay not offered to standard players. (This so-called "partial automation" being thrown around is muddying the waters; as if 1 "played" character and 5 automated characters is not some contrived legal loophole or even slightly more morally acceptable that is somehow easily prove-able against "full automation").

Cicelee,

You're right, we play in THEIR world. It doesn't make Elvenphox any less correct. He can and should post his opinion on these forums, ultimately that's what it's for.

He doesn't have to "find that" - Boxing has been going on for SO MANY years, it's become the acceptable standard. An Ethical Drift that became acceptable to a large part of the community.

Like 80% of the servers are boxing at this point, there's a small community that refuses to and that's perfectly acceptable.

Again, an opinion cause we live in THEIR world (WE keep that world alive via subscriptions though, don't forget that part).

Previous forum moderators instantly locked or deleted 3rd party software discussion (posters would be suspended or banned). Simply because the current forum moderators (likely with the blessing of studio leadership) are allowing people to vent (at least temporarily) does not mean such discussions can be used as threats (blackmail) against the studio or community (established rules).

Botting (automation) does not equal boxing. It is perfectly acceptable to use ALT+TAB without 3rd party software. (Though, I expect you to conflate key broadcasting software with automation software to threaten/chain-gang other segments of the playerbase).

Does the pro-cheat community really keep horse-blinders on?

You nailed it sir. No problem not snipping the quote because I think it's all relevant and the same thing I would say.

Lets all be honest here

The latest ban wave that hit a TON of accounts today, really is the "FIX" for server lag KEKW.

I really hope they are bans and not the "slap on the wrist" known as 7 day suspensions.

No. We understand perfectly well what the difference is. We're asking for the rules to be changed (aka what the policy used to be for at least 15 years) or a server to be given to us where we can be left in peace and not judged. I am perfectly fine going to a different server so the rules of the current servers do not need to be changed and they can actually come down hard on the players that abuse the system on current servers with the literal intent of cheating (full AFK automation). But I'm not getting into this debate again. I've already said what I had to say on the other threads and now I've said it here, too.

At least one member of the pro-cheat community is intellectually honest.

Agreed, with one tiny adjustment.

Heavily disagree. Opinions about the rules are highly relevant. I expect passionate players of any game to lobby for or against rules that they would like to see or not see.

I thought I was pretty clear on that point. They never offered to officially sanction automation in public. What we do have are decades of behavioral patterns to base our understandings of what would and would not be tolerated, consistent with what was being said behind closed doors.

They are suspensions.

Many players have removed and/or are not using anything against tos because they were suspended a few times in the last waves and removed it from their machines. Still getting suspensions.

The freeway I drive on near my house has a speed limit of 65. I want to drive 75-80 on it because my opinion is that I think 65 is dumb and I want to do it my way. So I get pulled over and appear before a judge who tells me the rule is to drive 65. I tell him my opinion is that I should drive 75-80.

Tell me how relevant my opinion is. Then apply that to what we are discussing.

No offense but it is impossible to trust hearsay or anecdotal reports on the internet.