Balance or lack of, what do you think DB devs balance vision is?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Skvoid, Feb 22, 2017.

  1. Skvoid Elder

    After the shaman and druid dot revamps (Enchanters since they got buffed are able to burn over 300k and sustain for a large amount too) I saw some numbers they are putting out and it made me wonder if the Devs have any plan at all for relative class balance. I see druids doing over 400k dps on burn phases and shaman not far off, while the monk on raid was able to do 280k dps over same period, Wizards and Berserkers are still just above Druids and Shaman but every other DPS class seems to have disappeared far behind them.

    I like that shaman got some buffs to DPS they needed it, druids had some nice dmg in nukes so didn't need a DPS bump up really. I just wonder why they buffed them so high, Raid parse had 3 druids and a shaman in the top 10 all doing over 300k dps.

    So I am curious about where DB thinks balance should be? I personally feel DPS classes should be at least 20 30% higher than hybrids and healers but at the moment it's not a even playing field with support and healer classes out dpsing pure DPS classes.

    Do you think DB has a plan or do they just buff whoever hasn't been buffed the longest and don't care about the relative balance or do they have some kind of ballpark figure they think classes should be balanced at? Say DPS is 100% hybrids are 95% support/healers say 60 70% of a DPS class?

    It would be nice if they communicated what their design philosophy for DPS balance is and where they are heading with it.
  2. Thash Augur

    I like to think the changes were part of the planning for a truly difficult upcoming expansion, reminiscent of underfoot at release - if we ever see it. Revamping all classes' capabilities at once would be foolhardy, when the dots are done we will find out what's next on the table.
  3. Skvoid Elder

    Seems a bit of a stretch to think they are pre buffing for the next expansion? It's also pretty tough if you are DPS class that has to be sub par DPS for months and months behind healers, and since they don't say what their plan is you may or may not actually be going to be buffed.
  4. Thash Augur

    Any speculation is a stretch. But why else the large dps improvements for tanks and dot casters? I think they're not done implementing their plan, whatever it is, and we have no way of knowing for sure.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  5. Skvoid Elder

    Yes I wish there was some kind of communication about their overall plan for where they want DPS to be, other games are much more transparent when it comes to where they want balance to be and DB could certainly give us some idea, unless of course they themselves don't know ;-)
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  6. Coagagin Augur

    Before hatching the latest conspiracy theory here, let look at some past history with "class imbalance" as that what it really is - isn't it?

    The interview posted with the release of Empires of Kunark (EoK) stated that class favoritism or imbalance was deliberate. My personal view on this is to create new toons thereby extending the lifespan of the game itself. Think about it. If so, ts a pretty shrewd play on DB's part and we're the ones being played here more so than the game itself.

    Look at how aggressively SKs became stealth marketed using AE aggro, riposte and hate racking up potentially hundreds of AA on a single lesson at a time. Now we are seeing druids and hybrids creeping up in DPS ability far from what appeared to be original game intent. Berserkers and so on down the line. We could pick this part ad nauseum till the cows come home from West Karana.Not seeing "enough" people playing a particular class? Up the DPS and pretend you have no clue as to whats going on. Again, DB has stated class favoritism is deliberate not accidental.

    What these little boosts do in the meantime is to motivate people into playing many of these once "under served" classes by getting people to start new toons. Once a toon has significant investment into the progression its harder to set aside. Otherwise why play the same class for nearly 18-19 years or whatever its been?

    Food for thought is all.

    - Coa
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  7. Skvoid Elder

    Interesting thought Coa, I didn't see the post saying there was deliberate imbalance from DB. Such a game philosophy is a bit disappointing, more so if you happen to be one of the classes at the bottom currently. Saying that I still love EQ despite it's issues.
  8. Coagagin Augur

    It was mentioned in the accompanying video, almost off hand by the current game designer.
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  9. Dropfast Augur

    I think a lot of it comes down to the Devs vision how things are on paper and what things are really like in game. As expected, the game on paper what things are really like are two completely different worlds. I don't know where they are getting their crap info from or what crap means of testing they are using, but it's clear tha it is way off. ><

    How the hell we went from like 10-30% increases to to straight up tripling is anyone's guess but whatever. ADPS increases every little change they make of which they should know this by now. So if you triple somethings damage, in a raid setting that's going to = out to more like 6 times more damage than before. This is EQ basics 101. ADPS magnifies everything.

    Who knows what their plans are, not like they tell us anything. Maybe this is all part of a re balancing act of which they are only half way threw? All I know is, this is the most F'd up things have ever been. We got Zerkers doing 2-3x more damage than every class in the game, in every situation possible. We got tanks out DPS'ing DPS classes. And now we got fing priests out DPS'ing DPS classes. I'm pretty sure it can't get worse........maybe....
  10. Sancus Augur

    You mean here? It's possible there's another video I'm unaware of, but at least in that one nothing they said suggested imbalance was deliberate.
  11. segap Augur

    My impression is they're very dependent on using formulas to balance. But over the years, all the layers of stuff isn't clear in the formulas. Likely some exceptions deep in code spaghetti, layering/syncing of adps they're not familiar with, etc. I don't get the impression they actually play test their balancing, nor that they're familiar enough with the way players actually use all the tools available (the odd choices of spells/discs some classes get with expansions speaks volumes to familiarity). It's just a crap-shoot based on EQ math. Sometimes it works, often it goes wonky.

    I have no reason to believe they're not trying to do right. It's just a complex puzzle. Their design space is limited, yet, there are tons of variables from 17+ years of items and abilities. Ideally a game is done entirely by the design team and the player base gets to enjoy discovering the intricacies. With the small team and years of cruft, I don't see any other way at this time other than getting knowledgeable (and truthful) players to to assist and test at the design stage as they tweak variables.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  12. Quixotic Journeyman

    Be very careful with what you think the definition of 'dps' class means. Not a single class, not even berserkers or wizards, were designed with 'this is a dps class' in mind.

    Classes in EQ were designed around three 'archtypes' tanking, healing, and utility. Everyone was, to a greater or lesser extent depending on the balance of those three factors, supposed to damage the mobs. (The 'holy trinity' for MMOs that people speak of started out as Paladin, Cleric, Enchanter - Tank, Healer, CC.) - NOT tank, healer, dps.

    I will agree, that over the years, player perception of 'how it should be' has changed. Classes have changed (some immensely.) But when it comes to balance, you have to add -everything- up. The game is not all about what you do in raiding, or grouping. It's about all the abilities you have.

    Wizards have ports. They have snares. They have roots. Sure, most raiders want them considered a 'pure' dps class, but I know I love those wizzie ports when it comes time to get anywhere. And those wizzies love being able to nuke from outside various AE ranges on mobs.

    Mages want a pet that can tank (at least) any mob in the group game. Yet, many of them also want to be able to DPS just as well as a Wiz in raids. Are snare, port, and root as valuable as being able to tank?

    Monks screamed for years for more and more 'toughness' (and got it) - and are far tougher than wizards. They were warned that everything you get comes with a price tag. You really think monks should be doing DPS like a wizard does?

    This can go on and on. AE vs Single target damage. Utility vs Tanking. No one is going to agree. If you've spoken with the devs at all, you'd learn that -even they- don't always agree.

    Because it's impossible. Not if we want classes that are distinct. Which we are slowly getting away from. Sadly (in my opinion, at least.)
  13. Skvoid Elder

    Yes I started EQ back in 2001 and back then utility was more important and my wizards ports were much more useful tools as traveling anywhere was significantly more time consuming, however utility isn't nearly as important as it was back then, it's mildly useful still but it's not much slower to run anywhere in the game anymore. And I think DPS was a metric back then, I remember groups specifically wanting melee classes for the sustained DPS they could put out over hours of XP grinding as well as the trinity of tank/heal/slow.CC.
    I think the problem is raiding is a very focused thing and once the tanking and healing is sorted out the only thing of value is DPS unless the event specifically needs some form of utility to win, but wizards/rogues/berserkers/monks don't really have any utility to offer even then, rangers/shamans will handle rooting and punting and SKs snare kiting, and CC will be done by chanters. And these classes are now DPS machines too, you could probably do most raids with just tanks/clerics/shaman/enchanters and win very easily and not bring a single "DPS" class, would be funny to see.
    I am not against these classes been buffed like I said it's just the amount their damage was buffed by that seems a bit high.
  14. Aaragonn New Member

    Hello,

    I myself play a wizard in a raidguild. I started to play EQ in 2000.

    All we can is port and do DPS.

    It is sad to see other classes such as shaman, which are great supporters who can heal/slow/buff...doing same or mor DPS than wizzies.

    Do not get me wrong, it is ok that sham have such an amazing DPS now (i guess necromancers will get their DPS boosted even more (which is now very high, especialy at longer fights), too).

    For me the class balancing does not exist anymore. So sad. What is the intension of boosting a support class (shammie) in DPS so much that other pure DPS caster classes such as wizzies do not make more damage anymore?

    Or will the wizzie be boosted in the near future, too?

    If not, it is just a joke. If DPS is needed in a raid, a shammie comes in and a wizzie sits out?

    regards

    Aaragonn
  15. Coagagin Augur

    It was mentioned in the accompanying video, almost off hand by the current game designer.
  16. kizant Augur

    Wizards were defind as the masters of magical damage from when I first made one in 1998 so I don't know where you get this idea from. Transportation was clearly listed secondary and nothing else was included in the description. Root and dispel were common among many classes and we didn't even have snare early on so calling us a utility class at any time doesn't make sense to me.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  17. Dropfast Augur

    But to get back more on topic, here is the way I see it. This is just my opinion, yes I know everyone's will vary. This is all things considered, in today's game. We all know things were very different back in the day, but this is not back in the day anymore. Also, I consider their to be 2 different kinds of DPS, sustained and burst.This is NOT how things are but what I think they should be. Just an opinion, nothing more.

    Burst DPS scale: 1 to 5 mins max approximately
    Tier1:
    1. Zerker - (100%) They have very little utility compared to Wiz so they should be # 1 in burst.
    2. Wizard - (around 95%) They are meant to be the big boomers of the Int classes.

    Tier2:
    3. Rouge - (around 90%) Rouge are very much like zerker, so they should be close to them.
    4. Mag - (around 85%) Wizards at heart but they should be behind them as they have a badass pet ect.
    5. Monk - (around 85%) Should still have descent burst but leaned more towards sustained.

    Tier 3:
    5. Necro (around 80%) Has a lot less to offer than hybids, should be leaned more towards sustained but still have mild burst so they are not totally useless in short fights.
    6. Ranger (around 75%)
    7. Beast (around 75%)

    I'm sorry Hybrids but since you guys can buff, heal, cure, snare, root, badass pet, ranged dps, slows, and great ADPS, you should not be as high as the other DPS clases, IMO. Numbers can vary some but should be close to this. Order can slightly vary as well but again not by much.

    Sustained DPS scale: approximately 5 min + fights.
    Tier1:
    1. Necro (100%) - They take time to scale up but should be unmatched in long fights since their burst sucks.
    2. Monk (95%) - Monks have always been geared towards sustained so this is where they should shine.
    3. Rouge (95%) - Also more geared towards sustained.

    Tier 2:
    4. Mag - (90%) Since Wiz is at top the list for burst, Mag should prob be slightly better at sustained but not by much.
    5. Zerker - (85%) - Zerk may have less defense / utility than others but can't be king of both burst and sustained.
    6. Wizard - (85%) - Same deal here.

    Tier3:
    7. Beast - (80%) -
    8. Ranger - (80%) -

    Again sorry Hybids but you offer way to much to to many other fields to be kings of either IMO. Again, order and numbers can vary slightly based on your opinion. This is just my view on how it should be. Much of this is exactly how things were years ago when balance was much better. You know when most classes had at least one event that they shined in.

    ADPS Kings:
    1. Bard - Should have great ADPS for both melee and caster.
    2. Ranger - Should have great ADPS, leaned more towards melee but a little caster ADPS as well.
    3. Beast- Same as ranger.
    4. Enchanter- Should have great ADPS- mostly for casters.
    5. Shaman - Should have mild / decent ADPS for Melee.
    6. Druid - Should have mild / decent ADPS for Casters.

    Again, this how I think things should be, not what they really are atm. Most of that is true now except bards are further behind in this department than they once were. Give bards more ADPS so they are kings of this field again.
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  18. Shaantara Elder

    They start talking class balance at 39:10 mark.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  19. Corwyhn Lionheart Augur

    I think they are actually trying to close the gap between the hardcore players and the average players. Less multiple dots of the same line stuff more straight forward usage of your current dot in a line. A lot of more average players never knew about stacking dot lines. Now its a moot point. Gear getting closer this expansion too. I suspect they are changing stuff around so that there are less non obvious ways to increase a toons power and make it all more straight forward.

    The closer the abilties of the hardcore and average player are the easier it is for them to design content that will appeal to a larger number of players. If they want to keep making expansions they need to sell enough to make it profitable. As the player base shrinks they need to expand expansion appeal. I suspect the easier TBM raids were an experiment in that direction. They know once expansions stop getting made that they will lose even more players. If they can't find new players they need to hold on to the ones they have and that means expansions have to keep coming. What they may lose to nerfs would be small potatos to what they would lose when expansions stop. All my opinion of course.


    I hope they are able to do a lot of data mining to figure out the direction they are going in and are not relying too much on those of us in the forums. I don't think the overall vocal part of the forum population are that similar to the average game population.
    Gyurika Godofwar and Belexes like this.
  20. Sancus Augur

    Right, but they don't mention that "class favoritism or imbalance was deliberate." They just say that it's always a moving target and that they try to achieve as much balance as possible, which is what they pretty much always say.

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