Gave this 3 attempts last night with war/clr/sham/ber/mnk/mage. I was concerned the dps might not have been there but it was never a problem. With all the healing we had it seemed to negate the reverse damage. The best run we had four pitifuls and the fifth was about to mature. We never at any point felt like we were in any real danger of failing. The problem for us seemed to be that our cleric would recieve the mana drain every time and would end up OOM and that's when it would decline and eventually the wipe. It just really seems like in its current form it requires skilled players with luck in who gets the mana drain. I didn't plan to spend hours looking for the lucky run. After hearing about someone's theory of getting new instances until maybe the cleric stops getting the mana drain it kind of made sense because she was the one to get it every time. I will probably go back and give it a few more runs but I seriously don't plan to waste to many hours looking for luck. IMO there just shouldn't be a mechanic in any content that will wipe your group/raid without atleast giving you the opportunity to overcome it.
I'm fine with some random luck on raids when it comes to DTs, mana drains, cross zone punts, etc. Raids have redundancy. You lose someone, the others step up and work harder. It's a battle of attrition and adapting. The problem with 6 person missions is that you don't have redundancy. You can't expect everyone in the game to put together groups with 2 healers and 2 tanks. Random bad luck of taking out the only healer or only tank is a failure. Group missions need to rely on mechanics that a skilled group can mitigate. Difficult is fun. Failing to random crap is not.
I'd like to caveat this by saying it's not a personal attack on anyone, just my view. Simple fact. There are group mission achievements, and raid mission achievements. If raiders want a challenge, guess what? Go do them in the raid content. Don't be surprised when your level of gear lets you breeze through group content, then try and spoil the group game for everyone else in this instance by going, "yea, that was a nice challenge, more like that please!" Lets take the video Good posted as an example. Right now he is one of, if not the, best geared warriors in the game, and even he was getting smacked around pretty hard by the time they had 5 succulents holding. So yes, this is possible for the elite group of people with good enough gear to stand up to that punishment. I think some raiders get it into their heads that it is purely their skill level that lets them beat content, and while it's very true that some people are more skilled in their class than others, in the grand scheme of things EQ is not a highly skilled game, compared to say being at the elite level of FPS games. Any superiority complex is badly judged. Given the percentage of the total people playing EQ that the raiding demographic represents, the amount of content that is made every xpac just for raiders is disproportionately high. I don't think they realise how spoiled/lucky they are, but people always want more.
Going to have to disagree with the skill comments. With the shear amount of discs, spells, buffs, clicks that are in this game easily 40% of just about any class comes down to knowledge and skill. How to use them all effectively in various settings for the best benefit. There very much is an art to it the many don't get. Don't get me wrong raid gear is a massive boost but there is a night and day difference between a skilled player over avg joe player even if avg joe player has all raid gear and the skilled player doesn't. Raid geared and skilled are often the reason for many nerfs people flip out over because they were not aware of what was actually possible in game when you pair the two. I know many a fool who krono purchased entire sets of raid drops minus the few they can't get and they are not nearly as good as some skilled group geared players of the same class.
No - but it seems to WANT to be a more highly skilled game. And soon only the highly skilled, easily adaptable players will be left. And yes, a mechanic that punts the tank or puts a mana-drain on the cleric works fine in a raid where more people can adapt. It's clearly not viable for group content - at all. -R
“40% of just about any class comes down to knowledge and skill.“ You’ve hit the nail on the head there with the word Knowledge. The greatest part of being good at any class in EQ is down to your knowledge. As it has gotten older and evolved, EQ has become increasingly complex, requiring said knowledge. It’s no coincidence that most of the best players are those who have been around for years and years. My point is, it’s easy to confuse that knowledge for skill. Semantics maybe, and don’t get me wrong, there is skill involved at playing EQ well. My example is this though: Given the opportunity to learn, the knowledge required and a positive attitude to both, pretty much anyone could become an effective raider in EQ in a short amount of time (let’s say a couple of months, maybe 6 tops). In comparison, how many people could start playing FPS’s from scratch, and competing at the top level in the same amount of time? Very few would be my guess. I apologise if the tone of this post comes across as negative, as that is not my intent. I’d simply like to debunk the elitist attitudes that some seem to cling to in this game.
Honestly, i think the word "skill" is overrated in EQ. Knowledge, yes - a lot of that is needed. But actual "skill" requirements have been brought down a lot since before my break. There seems to be a correlation between the increasing number of tools you have and the dimishing "skill" that is needed to survive/be good at your class. (as in: knowledge substituted skill over time) I am with Hickers in that for achievements like this in it's current form, "skill" is less of a factor, especially when compared to the impact gear and the "quality" of your company have. And especially i find myself in agreement with him stating Like Hickers, i have watched the vid and seen things that don't exactly speak of much "skill" in my eyes. (like going without defensives for extended periods of time, except perhaps the AC disc that does us raiders not much good in group content anyways since our mitigation is already so far to the left side of the DI; or the recklessness of allowing to being the tank beat down to 30, which no group geared tank would've survived due to less mitigation and less general HPs to boot) On the other hand, the beating the named to 4% was sure a smart move - as was the offtanking the boss all the while by someone or some"thing" else (pet?) while gathering up the 5 adds; that falls into the "knowledge" category for me, not "skill". It's still far too early to truly worry over group achievements imo, as most group-geared people aren't in their full T2 gear yet - so we do not have a baseline other than the one presented so far by raid-geared people. But i am fairly sure that if this were done with either a group-geared tank or a group geared healer (not to mention group-geared DPS), the "slack" visible in the vid would've resulted in a fail. I can sure understand the statement by a raid healer in a (selected/hand-picked) raid group. This is actually completely in line with Hickers' statement above - and quite a revealing statement in my eyes.
I wanted to stay out of this, but my ignorance is too strong this morning. For the comments of "this is easy" using a hand picked six person group representing the best of the best in the game... I wonder what would happen if one of those six went into General chat and picked five mains from a non raiding guild and tried the achievement. Now if five casuals from a casual guild and one high end raider can do the achievement, then it is going to be super hard for anyone (casual, mid tier, high end) to say the achievement is too hard. But if they cannot, then maybe the comments of "this is too hard" may have some merit and proof in it for the general populous...
I don't have this achievement or know them at all. And I am not saying this achievement should stand like it is or be the normal. I was pointing out how much of this game comes down to skill or lack there of. But twitch speed isn't skill, its merely having faster reflexes often due to age. I was really good at fps in my late teens and 20's now not so much and at lot of it isn't a loss of knowledge or skill its simply I can't react as fast as back then. One can still have a lot of skill at something despite being older and slightly slower to react. Skill requires knowledge and years of practice in most cases. Having aptitude or some natural gifts at something like fast reflexes when paired with skill/knowledge can put you over the heads of others. You seem to have it in your head that reflexes or whatever are skill. Skill is a blend of knowledge and experience acquired from practice or time. I am not implying EQ takes lots of skill either but as I said its night and day when you have it. And there are some who have played a short time and have it or others who have played for over a decade and don't so its not just having time in game.
Yeah, skill isn't a factor in EQ, it's just gear. That's why every guild wins every expansion at the same time and every raid geared, well balanced group has completed this achievement.
My sarcasm-sense is tingling, but what you've said there isn't too far from the truth. Most of the top guilds (those with the experienced players, and no issues with numbers/attendance) finish xpac's around the same time. If the race wasn't close, why would people care about the race? The only deciding factor comes from those willing to raid at no matter the time, day, etc. You could argue that it takes a certain skill to convince 40+ people to organise their lives around raiding. I want to reiterate that yes, there is a certain amount of skill required to play EQ well. I just think a bit of perspective is healthy. Maybe my comparison to FPS gaming was a bad choice, I just wanted an example in the gaming field. I don't simply equate skill with twitch reaction times. For a real world example, how about playing golf, or playing the piano? You wouldn't go from never touching a club to winning the masters in a few months. You wouldn't be playing concerts after 4 or 5 piano lessons. Basically, we should all resist the urge to look down upon those we deem to have less 'skill' than us, because the divide isn't as wide as you think.
You're right. It's not a hard game. Thing is, there is a big gulf between many players. It's mind boggling how so many players can struggle in a game that in truth is easy (even decked out in group gear). "Skill" is an arbitrary word. For EQ, it mostly comes down to knowledge and awareness of a situation. For whatever reason, however, many either don't bother with learning the several things they need to know or could care less. Gear cannot be discounted for making things easier, but someone that doesn't bother to learn what buttons to press will still suck in the best gear. Achievements are a great place to give top players a challenge. Just make them for things that don't block the average player from progressing and experiencing the game. The thing with raids are they're for 40-50ish people. Depending on your role, you might not have much personal challenge beyond striving to play your class the best you can and optimize week to week. Group mission achievements provide a venue for individuals to have more direct impact.
Hence my original post, I do think the divide is more massive then you realize. I have seen people pay 10, 20 or even 50 kronos for some of those rare raid drops and its not this massive chasm in power even after buying 10 or 15 slots. Yes they have gained power and improved but relatively speaking they are still leaving 30-50% of the capabilities on the table. Thats why so many have struggled in RoS, gone are standing their with little skill and healing and tanking through 4 or 5 mobs at once. They get by fine when it doesn't really matter at all but had they actually learned how to play they would have been better off and saved a ton of money unless they wanted to pair up that new skill with the gear.
What top EQ player got there after 4 or 5 lessons? I don't really understand that comparison. Plus skills do translate between different types of video games just like they do with sports or playing music. Plenty of people have gone from an expert in one thing to competent in another fairly quickly. If you were really good at FPS it's not surprising that you wouldn't need a lot of time to be competent in EQ. But if you were new to computers or video games entirely? You know that's now happening quickly. I think EQ is interesting because it's complex enough that it takes more than just twitch/reaction time and simple practice. There's plenty of people that have been playing for many many years who haven't figured out how to play at a level good enough for a mid-tier raiding guild let a lone a top guild. For example, let's say you're someone who doesn't seek out information or guides from other people and you're not good at evaluating/testing things yourself and want to avoid math all together and can't figure out how gamparse works. You just like to take a break and play a mindless game from time to time. It really isn't *that* easy to play that way, trying abilities out randomly, etc and come across the best options by what feels like it's working well. What I see happening sometimes is that someone will stumble across the first thing that works and then they just stick to it. Then fifteen years goes by and they're still doing it because it's still working. They don't even realize dozens of better approaches have come along or that they were doing something kind dumb in the first place. Some people have been doing it for so long they feel like they must know what they're doing, cause it's been so long, and the don't even want to change. Seriously, play on Test for a while and you'll see what I mean and I'm not 'putting people down' by pointing that out. I know it's kind of an extreme example but I think more people are to that side than we probably think. In fact, it's the only way I can make sense out of like 2/3 the comments on this forum.
